Lee Camp
[00:00:00] I'm Lee C. Camp and this is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
Azim Khamisa
The 14-year-old fired one round, and Tariq died at the young age of 20.
Lee Camp
That's Azim Khamisa. His son Tariq was delivering a pizza when he was shot by a 14-year-old gang member.
Azim Khamisa
I lost strength in both of my legs as I collapsed to the floor.
Lee Camp
Today we hear how Azim moved from that deep grief toward working alongside his son's killer to end cycles of violence for youth.
Azim Khamisa
Tony said to me, "Daddy, that's a very special man. I killed his one and only son. Not only has he forgiven me, he's offered me a job."
Lee Camp
All coming right up.[00:01:00]
I am Lee C. Camp and this is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
Gandhi once famously said, 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.' Emotional hurts, insults, violence may all become seed for the flowering of retaliation. Hurt people hurt people, as conventional wisdom has it.
The cycle of violence seems inexorable, unstoppable. Yet, there are exemplars to the contrary who find a way to transcend the cycle.
Azim Khamisa
It took me five years, thousand hour plus meditation, to feel the courage to go meet him, because eventually I knew that for me to complete my journey of forgiveness, I had to come eyeball to eyeball with Tony.[00:02:00]
Lee Camp
My guest today, Azim Khamisa, knows what it's like to experience the pain of cycles of violence. His 20-year-old son Tariq was delivering a pizza when he was approached by four young gang members. A 14-year-old with a pistol - yes, a 14-year-old - named Tony Hicks, fired one shot in a senseless moment and killed Azim's son. There followed the expected grief and pain for Azim, but amidst that grief and pain, an unexpected possibility.
Azim Khamisa
First thing that my buddy said to me when we were alone is, "Where were these kids are that killed Tariq? I hope they fry in hell." And I looked at him, I said, "I don't feel that way. I see that there are victims at both ends of the gun."
Lee Camp
So how is it that Azim's own grief and pain was [00:03:00] transformed into compassion and forgiveness over time...even for his son's killer? What's more, how did he go on to form a foundation to end cycles of youth violence in his son's name?
Azim Khamisa
To teach the principles of non-violence: accountability, empathy, compassion, forgiveness.
Lee Camp
Today, our conversation with Azim Khamisa. How his faith as a Sufi Muslim helped him in this tragedy. And just how his son's killer is now working alongside Azim as they help hundreds of thousands of young people avoid the same fate.
Azim Khamisa is an author, peace activist, and public speaker born in Kenya, educated in England in mathematics, economics, and international finance. He has over 45 years of experience as a successful international investment banker, but for the last number of decades has given much of his life and time to the Tariq Khamisa Foundation, which seeks to halt the cycle of violence [00:04:00] among youth. And in that work he's authored five books, has kept what seems to be an endless speaking calendar, and is the recipient of 80 regional, national, and International awards.
Azim, thank you so much for having us here with you today.
Azim Khamisa
My pleasure. Nice to meet you, Lee.
Lee Camp
It's nice to meet you.
So you were born in Kenya?
Azim Khamisa
I was born in Kenya, right.
Lee Camp
Yes. When you think of kind of formative experiences for you as a young person in Kenya, what are some of those things that stand out to you as-- whether it family or formative experiences?
Azim Khamisa
Well, you know, it's a wonderful place to grow up in. Uh, we had, uh, gazelles and deers in our backyard and, and it's a, beautiful weather, and, and although my ethnic roots are Indian, and it depends how far back you want to go, although Azim is a Persian name, but my grandfather moved to Kenya in 1906. I grew up, uh, as a Sufi Muslim, but I interacted [00:05:00] with people that were of different cultures and different religions.
So I thought that was a good way to grow up in.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
That you had exposure to so many different faiths and cultures and lifestyles.
Lee Camp
Mm-hmm.
Uh, for those who are unaware of some of the basic tenets of Sufism, would you tell us a little bit about that?
Azim Khamisa
Well, Sufism is essentially the mystical interpretation of Islam. So, very similar in the Jewish faith, you have the Kabbalah--
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
--which is a mystical interpretation of the Jewish faith. And in the Christian faith you have the Quakers, which could be looked at as a mystical interpretation. Or, uh, even Ignatius Loyola, he started the, the movement, which is different--
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
--in the Catholic-- they're much more metaphysical.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
Thomas Merton comes to my mind.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
He's uh, very much, uh, was influenced by Eastern religion.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
So, so Sufism [00:06:00] is, uh, essentially very focused on meditation. I, I used to meditate an hour, uh, when my son was alive. Now my meditation is two hours a day.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And of course, uh, we are known for twirling dervishes. We dance, and, uh, we chant and, uh, uh, we look at the hidden meaning of the scripture. So Sufism is, uh, very different than fundamentals.
Unfortunately, most of our major religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are primarily fundamentalists. The metaphysical interpretation of all of these three faiths is very small, as you probably already know.
And I speak a lot and I was speaking at a conference in Berkeley University and there was a Sufi that had a degree in, in Sufism and Islam and taught [00:07:00] Islam. So I thought, I'm, I'll go to-- I, I'll go listen to him. And he was very funny. He says, "I don't get fundamentalists. He says, think about it. It's not much fun. It's not very mental. So I guess the meaning must lie the middle syllable da."
[Both laugh]
So I thought that explained it well, because in, in Sufism, we have more of an ecumenical view. So if you take a Kabbalah and a Sufi and a Quaker, they have very few issues between them. Whereas if you look at the fundamentalists, they have more issues. And yet, as you probably know, that we all pray to the same God, right? The God of Abraham.
Lee Camp
Yeah.
This contemplative tradition in which Azim was steeped became a lifeline in 1995.
Azim Khamisa
He was a good kid, uh...good student.
Lee Camp
Here, Azim is speaking of his son Tariq, who was [00:08:00] aged 20 in 1995. Tariq was studying journalism at the time.
Azim Khamisa
He wanted to eventually work for National Geographic. He was a gifted writer, he was a talented photographer, and, uh, worked as a pizza delivery man, you know, on Fridays and Saturdays to make some extra money for college.
Lee Camp
Tariq was lured to a bogus address at random, by members of a gang. Once at the address, with pizza in hand, he was accosted by four young gang members.
Azim Khamisa
The leader was 18 years old, and the other three were 14 years old. And the 18-year-old handed a nine millimeter handgun, and my son is in the car trying to back his car, and gave the order to a 14-year-old who fired one round, which came through the driver's side window, entered my son's body under the left shoulder blade, [00:09:00] traveled across the upper part of his chest, and it exited from his right armpit. And Tariq died couple of minutes later...
...over a lousy pizza at the young age of 20.
Lee Camp
Azim was standing in his kitchen when the phone rang - a call from the police. His first thought, it must be a case of mistaken identity. It could not possibly be his son. But then he called his son's fiance, Jennifer, and it turned out that the horror was true. Tariq was dead.
Azim Khamisa
I lost strength in both of my legs as I collapsed to the floor, hit my head against the refrigerator, curled up in a ball.[00:10:00]
I don't have the words to describe how excruciatingly painful that experience was. Literally like a nuclear bomb that had gone off in my heart and that I was blown into millions of smithereens that I knew would never, ever be found or come back together. And the pain was so unbearable that I had my first out of body experience. Because I've heard that when victims go through deep trauma like this, they often leave their body because they can't be in their body because the pain is unbearable.
And I believe in God, and I believe I went into the loving embrace of God. And I don't recall how, how long I was gone for, felt like a long [00:11:00] time. And when the explosion subsided, God sent me back into my body. And then I had to make those really difficult and excruciating calls...to his mother, my daughter, my parents.
And then I called my best friend, because I lived by myself...
...and he said, "Don't do anything, Kit and I will right be there." His name is Dan, and Kit was his wife. And they were with me an hour and a half after I found out. And...by that time, homicide had visited us and told us that there were some eyewitnesses.... That there was a youth gang involved with Tariq's death, and they were following up on some leads.
And the first thing [00:12:00] that my buddy said to me when we were alone is, uh, "Whoever these kids are that killed Tariq, I hope they fry in hell." And I looked at him, I said, "I don't feel that way. I see that there are victims at both ends of the gun." And I remember he broke down and cried. He said, "Azim, where do you get the strength? If somebody took Adam--" which was his son, "--not only would I want the killers, I want the whole clan."
I never really went there. And then when I, three years later, I wrote my first book, it was because I was asked so many times, "How did you react that way?" And the short answer is it not something that came from my intellect. I don't think us mortals are capable of it...or my loving heart.
It was more of a download from a higher power.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
I came with that vision after my outer body experience, and I didn't really [00:13:00] realize that till much later. Cause I started the foundation nine months after Tariq died.
Lee Camp
Azim founded the Tariq Khamisa Foundation to End Cycles of Youth Violence. The foundation has connected with over half a million youth in communities across San Diego County since its founding.
But for Azim, shortly after starting the foundation, he knew he had to start ending cycles of violence right at the epicenter of the violence in his own life...with the family of Tony Hicks. Tony was the 14-year-old boy who had shot Tariq. But Azim wasn't quite ready to reach out yet to Tony directly.
Azim Khamisa
I reached out to his grandfather, with the attitude, I'm not here screaming retribution and revenge because your grandson killed my son.
I reached out to you because I am concerned about how you are dealing with this. And the way I see it is we both lost a son, [00:14:00] because Tony lived with his grandfather and calls him Daddy.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
He, he got Tony at the age of eight.
And I've started this foundation with a very lofty mission of stopping kids from killing kids. I need your help. Will you help me?
And he was very quick to take my hand of forgiveness. He said to me, "Thank you for reaching out to me. Ever since I, I found out that my grandson was responsible for the death of your son, I went into the prayer closet, praying that someday I get an opportunity to meet you so I can, I can extend my condolences to you and your family, and thank you for reaching out to me. And yes, of course, I will help you." And, and he has stood by my side for these 28 years.[00:15:00]
Lee Camp
You're listening to No Small Endeavor and our conversation with Azim Khamisa, founder of the Tariq Khamisa Foundation, which seeks to end cycles of youth violence.
I love hearing from you. Tell us what you're reading, who you're paying attention to, or send us feedback about today's episode. You can reach me at lee@nosmallendeavor.com.
We are delightfully pleased to have you joining us on our podcast. If you have not yet, hit the follow or subscribe button next to No Small Endeavor in your podcast app. Make sure to do that so you don't miss a single episode. And also there in your podcast app, you can get extras like show notes, links related to the episode, a PDF of my interview notes, and a complete transcript of the episode.[00:16:00]
Coming up, Azim shares how his Sufi Muslim faith, its rituals for grief, and its community helped him transform the tragedy of his son's death.
We've often raised the fact on our show that whatever living a good life means, it cannot mean insulation from the hardships of life or pretending as if we can shield ourselves from grief. So I often find myself wondering how those who have experienced great grief bear the endeavor. For Azim, a significant part of the answer was his faith.
He's a practicing Sufi Muslim, and Sufism entails extensive rituals for grief, including chant and dance. And I asked Azim to share what those rituals had meant to him.
Azim Khamisa
Well, I'll give you an example. When Tariq died, um, 1,400 people were at his funeral. In our tradition, everybody passes in a single file around his body.
Uh, [00:17:00] he's dressed in a white unstitched cloth, 'cause we bury dust to dust. And, uh, while 1,400 people are going in a single file around his body, it took two and a half hours, and during the two and a half hours we chanted. We have a chant called 'Allahumma Salli ala Muhammadin waala aali Muhammed.'
It's a chant that you normally use in times of difficulty and trauma. And think about it, 1,400 people chanting in unison for two and a half hours.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
Totally changes your conscience. Because part of our tradition is to-- for me to actually step into the grave to accept my son's body. I tried that on a Saturday. The funeral was on a Thursday. He was on a litter, you know, and I had one of the poles on my left shoulder, one on my right shoulder.[00:18:00]
My brother was in the back and my nephews were on the side. But as we went through the hall, from the front of the hall where the funeral prayers were recited, to the hearse that was waiting on the outside, we had to actually walk through the hall. And everyone that was there put their hand on the gurney like, we are helping you carry your weight.
So, so those rituals were what kind of saved me, and the chant was so powerful that I was actually able to climb into the grave and accept his, his body, which, uh...very difficult.
Lee Camp
You-- so you, you physically climbed into his grave.
Azim Khamisa
Uh, was, yeah. I was down six feet and, uh, I had help. There were a couple of volunteers down there as they lowered my son's body on the [00:19:00] gurney and accepted it.
And I remember I stayed there a very long time, and I don't think I could have done that without the chant. And I remember thinking, bury me with him. I didn't want to leave him there alone. I mean, you know, he's my only son, obviously I have a daughter. And those early days were very difficult. I was suicidal at one point because I really did not know how to move forward without him.
So then my best friend, uh, went up with me and he pulled me out of the grave. It was my turn to put some dirt on top of it that covered his face. And you take a spade and you pick up some dirt that is already mounted and everybody that was at the funeral then followed me with adding more dirt on top of his body.
And then we go back to the funeral hall and [00:20:00] have, uh, a meal and prayers and for everybody that, that was there. But part of the Sufi tradition is we grief for 40 days. I think there's a similar ritual in the Jewish faith called sitting Shiva. I believe it's nine days. And during those 40 days, you are supposed to grieve.
So you-- I had people from my congregation that brought meals. And, and they offer to clean your home, whatever need-- whatever assistance you need, they would offer, were I to tell the story. And since Tariq died in such a tragic manner, they wanted all of the details.
And I couldn't even say Tariq died. I couldn't say the word 'died' because it was early and it was like sending a 2,000 amp volt through my system. But [00:21:00] they would wait. In between stories we would chant.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And that was very useful. And the 40 days as, uh, my spiritual teacher taught me, that according to the Sufi tradition that I grew up, is that the reason you grieve for 40 days is the soul of the departed person is in close proximity of family and loved ones, and that at the end of the 40 days, his soul moves to a different consciousness in preparation for his forward journey.
You, you have prayers at the funeral, 10 days, 20 days, 30 days. But the most significant prayers are at the 40 day mark because that ends the grieving period. Because as I was taught by my spiritual teacher, that your son's spirit now is moved to a different consciousness in preparation of his forward journey.
And excessive grieving after 40 [00:22:00] days by family and loved ones will impede his journey in the next world. My recommendation to you is to do good deeds because good compassionate deeds done in the name of the departed are spiritual currency and provide high octane fuel for his journey in the next world.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
I thought, why don't they teach you this stuff in college?
Lee Camp
Yeah. [Both laugh]
Nine months after Tariq's death and funeral, Azim started the Tariq Khamisa Foundation to Stop Cycles of Violence for Youth. Shortly afterward, he asked the grandfather of the boy who killed Tariq to join him.
Azim Khamisa
I figured that we're not gonna wake up one day and find that the world is at peace. We have to proactively work--
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
--every single day. And here we are. Uh, the foundation is on it's 28th year. The grandfather and I are still together. I would never have met him had his grandson not killed my son. He [00:23:00] is, uh, African-American. He is Christian. He grew up as a Baptist from the South.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And I'm a Muslim and he's as close to me as my own brother.
He has a master's degree in urban development.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
Two tours in Vietnam as a Green Beret, so he's served our country. And one of the most intelligent human beings. I've learned a lot from him. And very street smart because he grew up in South Central LA where Tony was born. Tony was the young man that took my son's life.
Lee Camp
Two years after Tariq's death, Tony Hicks had a hearing to see if he would be tried as a juvenile or an adult. 20 days earlier, the age had been lowered for capital crime from 16 to 14, making Tony eligible to be tried as an adult - something Azim was against. The night before the hearing, Tony's grandfather went to see Tony.
He had [00:24:00] raised Tony, and though he was Tony's grandfather, Tony called him Daddy. And when he arrived at the prison, Tony...
Azim Khamisa
...jumped into his grandfather's lap. He's 16 years old and, uh, they have this ritual where they have fruit with-- when they were difficult conversations. So Ples talks about it, I brought an apple and an orange, and talked to Tony and he cried and said, "Daddy, I'm so, so, so, so sorry. I will do the right thing." And at the hearing, he gives a very cathartic speech, which we still use in our programs in the foundation, where he says, "I shot and killed Tariq Khamisa, a person I did not know, who was not doing anything wrong to me."
Which never happens, 'cause when the judge asks, 'How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?' 99% of the time they say not guilty. [00:25:00] He didn't say that. "I shot and killed Tariq Khamisa, a person I did not know, who was not doing anything wrong to me. I am guilty." 16 and a half years old. In the same speech he says, "I pray to God that Mr. Khamisa would forgive me for the pain that I've caused him."
I'd already forgiven him, but it was, it was meaningful for me that he asked for my forgiveness.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And the judge told him, "This is not about murder. This is just a hearing to decide whether you should be tried as an adult or as a juvenile." And Tony said, "I don't want to drag my family and Mr. Khamisa's family through a trial." So, because he had already said, 'I'm guilty,' she had to sentence him.
She actually quoted me at the hearing, [00:26:00] saying that I felt he was a victim as well. I felt that he was a victim of society, of American society. And begs the question, well, who's American society? Well it's you and me and whoever is listening to this podcast.
Societies don't happenstance. Everyone who's responsible, who is an American citizen, is responsible for a society we've created. We are reflected in our society. Well, children killing children is not a mark of a civil society. 'How did we get here?' is the question I asked, 'where children kill children?' It doesn't happen in other countries.
See the study, they took 25 countries in the world - first world countries, like England, Germany, France, Australia, Canada, Japan - and they added all the kids that die in those 25 countries, took the total and multiplied that by 11. That's how many we lose in the US of A. And that was a few years ago. It's more now.[00:27:00]
So I felt that he was a victim of society. And as an American citizen, I felt I should take my share of the responsibility for the bullet that took my son's life. Why? Because it was fired by an American child. And you could take the position, you know, he should be hung from the highest pole, he killed my one and only son.
Well, how does that make a better society?
Tony was sentenced to 25 years to life with parole, the more lenient of the two options at the judge's disposal, trying a 14-year-old as an adult.
Lee Camp
Though Azim had seen Tony in court and heard him speak, he still had not actually met him face to face yet.
Azim Khamisa
It took me five years...thousand hour plus meditation...to feel the [00:28:00] courage to go meet him. Because eventually I knew that for me to complete my journey of forgiveness I had to come eyeball to eyeball with Tony.
So after about four and a half years, I, uh, told Ples, I'm ready to meet Tony. My mother always thought I was crazy. She didn't think I was safe. I said, don't worry about him. I'm-- Tony's not gonna hurt me.
Well, Tony wasn't quite ready, because this was not on his radar screen that I ever reach out to him. So he had to prepare himself.
It didn't take him very long. Six months later, Ples said, "Tony's ready."
So I told him, "Ples, I want you to go with me because this is the first time I'm meeting Tony." And I said, "You know, you are his grandfather. He was the last person to see my son. I have some tough questions to ask him. And with you there, he's gonna be defensive. I [00:29:00] need alone time with Tony."
He said, "No problem, Azim." He was very graceful. So we met, the three of us together, for about half an hour. We talked about his day in prison. And then the grandfather left me and Tony to speak man to man. He was 19 years old. And we spent a couple of hours together. And he answered my questions.
But the seminal moment in that meeting is that we locked eyeballs.
And I'm looking in his eyes trying to find a murderer, and he held my glance for what seemed like a long time, almost uncomfortable. But I was able to climb through his eyes, and touch his humanity that I got, that the spark in him was no different than the spark in me.
I was able to...to [00:30:00] touch his soul.
I wasn't expecting that. But Tony was well-mannered. He was articulate. He was remorseful. A likeable kid. If you walked through those doors, you would have the same impression of him. He didn't portray any of the typical attitude of a 19-year-old or his initial bravado. I could see that my forgiveness had changed him.
So at that point I told him, "Tony, you know I have forgiven you, but I want you to know when you come out of prison you can join the foundation and come work for the foundation."
And after a [00:31:00] couple of hours we got back together, and then soon after I left, and I remember walking out of that prison.
And Tony's 42 now, so that was over 22 years ago, 23 years ago. I still remember that my stride leaving the prison was a lot more bouncier than the one I'd walked in with. It was like-- Forgiveness can be very freeing. It was like a big albatross that was lifted off my shoulders.
And the preeminent thought as I was leaving the prison was, why did I wait five years?
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
It was a very freeing moment, okay. At that point, I knew I had completed my journey of forgiveness.
The next day the grandfather calls me, says, "Azim. That meeting you had with Tony has transformed him 180 degrees."
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
He says, "As you were leaving, Tony said to me, Daddy that's a very special man. I killed his one and only son. Not only has he forgiven me, he's offered me a job. I'm not worthy of his forgiveness or his job offer, but I'm going to try."
Lee Camp
Tony made every effort he could to do good work in prison and to make something good with his life. Azim, too, was certain to make good on his job offer.
So in 2019, Azim and his daughter, that is Tariq's sister, had a chance to go in front of a parole board in an attempt to get Tony released from prison.
Azim Khamisa
And my testimony was that Tony has work to do, but not behind bars. He has to come work for the foundation because he's not the same person he was when he was 14.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And when he is on stage with me, [00:33:00] which we have done since he's been out, uh, and he says to the kids, "When I was 11, I joined a gang. When I was 14, I murdered Mr. Khamisa's son. I wish I could turn the clock back." How many 11-years-old in the audience that are thinking about getting involved with a gang will change their mind?
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And the commissioner was in tears. He said, "I've been doing this work for 25 years. I've never had the victim's father and sister advocate for the offender's release."
And I said to him, "Well, you know, I always saw Tony as a victim and he can save a lot of young people. Please grant him his parole."
And he did! Which never happens. When the first time you go in front of a parole hearing.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
You don't normally win parole.[00:34:00]
Lee Camp
We're going to take a short break, but coming right up, Azim discusses the work of the Tariq Khamisa Foundation.
Azim Khamisa
There's principles of accountability, empathy, compassionate, forgiveness, peacemaking, peace building... that not only are these soft skills teachable, our kids are hungry for them.
Shortly after Tariq's death, Azim had founded the Tariq Khamisa foundation. their initial mission was to stop kids from killing kids by breaking the cycle of youth violence. And now his son's killer was out and working alongside Azim to stop this from happening to others.
We reach, you know, 15, 20,000 kids every year. It's actually our 28th year, over 2 million kids, over 150,000 letters from kids, teaching these [00:35:00] principles of nonviolence. And he's now very impactful, especially with those kids that may be on that slippery slope like he was when he joined the gang. So it's, it's an amazing story to see how all of that has...created something beautiful from something that is like a nightmare.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
Yeah, I mean, uh uh, something that I would never have expected, everything that has manifested in my life in the last 28 years. That was the 28th anniversary we just passed. I would've never, ever dreamt in my wildest dreams that all this has manifested as a result of choosing to forgive.
Lee Camp
Hmm. [00:36:00]
The Tariq Khamisa Foundation has three mandates.
Azim Khamisa
First was to save children.
Don't have to tell you, we lose one every hour. We've had so many mass killings. Couple a day, 600 in the year we just passed. And I was shocked about the number of young souls like Tariq that we lose, and we lose the others too.
You know, the ones that do the killing, because they're victims as well, is the way I saw it. I couldn't, couldn't fathom. We are the richest nation in the world and I didn't feel we were doing enough to save our young children.
So the foundation mission was to save lives of children, to empower the right choices so they don't fall through the crack and get involved with gangs and crimes and drugs and alcohol and weapons, and to teach the principles of nonviolence - of accountability, empathy, of [00:37:00] compassion, forgiveness. I forgave my son's killer.
Lee Camp
The foundation teaches the following six tenets to kids as a part of its Safe School Model.
One: violence is real and hurts everyone. Two: actions have consequences. Three: youth can make good and non-violent choices. Four: youth can work toward forgiveness as opposed to seeking revenge. Five: everyone deserves to be loved and treated well. Six: from conflict, love and unity are possible.
This challenging final tenet, 'from conflict, love and unity are possible,' this seems borne out not [00:38:00] only in Azim's life as we've heard, but also in his years of writing a trilogy of books on the path from conflict to such love and unity.
Azim Khamisa
You know, my first book was 'From Murder to Forgiveness,' and the sequel was 'From Forgiveness to Fulfillment' because the work I've done in the aftermath of my son's tragedy has been very fulfilling. And the trilogy is 'From Fulfillment to Peace,' and Tony wrote the forward to that.
So it's a 20 plus year journey that started very, very dark...with murder, but ended in peace. And it's helped so many, many young people, and adults. I do a two day workshop, uh, on, teach three milestones, steps of how you forgive people that have harmed you, and two milestones of how you forgive yourselves, because at some level, we've all harmed too. It's a very popular and cathartic workshop, and most [00:39:00] everyone gets a breakthrough.
So, it's not an easy thing to forgive, especially for us. We live in a very judging world, and that's probably the biggest impediment to forgiveness, is judgment.
I've been very fortunate, I met some amazing human beings in this last 27 years, including His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Met him six times now.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And he was the one that told me, "The biggest impediment to forgiveness, Azim, is judgment."
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
These principles of accountability, empathy, compassionate, forgiveness, peacemaking, peace building... that not only are these soft skills teachable, our kids are hungry for them.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And here today, we still do the assembly. We just did one last week. [00:40:00] We've now followed it up with a 10 week curriculum, which is grade specific. Three levels - the first is fourth and fifth, second is sixth and seventh, the third is eighth and ninth. So we focus from fourth grade to ninth grade.
Tony joined a gang in sixth grade and took my son's life in eighth grade. And after the 10 week, uh, curriculum where we teach these social-emotional skills, we create a Peace Club on campus, which essentially is a leadership program with about 60 titles.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
Idea being that we inspire young people to become non-violent leaders committed to peace building and peacemaking within themselves, their families, their schools, and their community.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And then we have a mentoring program. So the first three program, the assembly, the curriculum, and the Peace Club goes to the entire campus. The mentoring goes [00:41:00] to those 8-12% that are on that slippery slope - which is a big number, because most San Diego inner city school, middle schools have about a thousand kids.
Between 80 and 120 are potentially are going to be involved with gangs and crimes and drugs and alcohol and weapons. So those we mentor. And the results have been phenomenal. That, uh, we've cut expulsions and suspensions by over 70%.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
We've improved SAT scores. Kids are kinder.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
Even the schools are impressed with how much, uh, empathy and, and compassion that they are willing to show.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
So in San Diego County, there are 42 unified school districts. And we work with all of them. They provide direct services. And it's very affordable. Not only are the results more impactful, the re-- our cost-- it wasn't always that way, but we've been able to win the cost way down.
'Cause it costs [00:42:00] $11,547 to provide free K-12 education.
It costs $148,000 to incarcerate a youth for one year.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And listen to this - even after spending that kind of money, the recidivism rate is 84%.
Lee Camp
Ugh.
That is, 84% of those that are released from prison then later find themselves back in prison for some other offense. Only 16% stay out of prison after release.
Azim Khamisa
Tony's one of those 16%. So essentially you're spending this money lifelong because it's like a turnstile, right?
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
The cost of our Safe School Model is under 50 bucks a kid a year.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
So you don't have to be an investment banker to know that's a good investment, you [00:43:00] know? [Both laugh]
So now we've started to expand nationally. So we have a second site in Pennsylvania, and uh, about a couple years ago we opened one, uh, in Colorado. So when we leave San Diego County, we become a training institute.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
Here we provide real mentors that aren't on school campuses, the whole nine yards.
But then when we go outside of San Diego, we essentially train the counselors and the social workers - most schools have those -
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
to essentially then, teach our curriculum to students. So...
Lee Camp
But, uh, the website, again, if people wanna learn more?
Azim Khamisa
The website for the foundation is tkf.org. T as in Tom, K as in king, F as in Frank, dot org.
It's a really robust, uh, website and, uh, those, uh, people that are in, in-- [00:44:00] involved with schools or teachers or counselors if they're interested in our Safe School Model to please contact us.
Lee Camp
Again, if you're interested in this curriculum to end cycles of violence in youth, you can visit tkf.org for more information.
When you now, 28 years later, remember Tariq, what, what are some memories of him, pictures of him, images of him that come to mind that are, that are fond to you?
Azim Khamisa
He had a really great sense of humor. Didn't get it from me. [Lee laughs] I'm more of a serious guy. He, um, you know, could crack a joke or break up even a very tense moment.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And he just had an amazing personality. He loved children. Children loved him.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And he... birthday's March 6th so he would've been [00:45:00] 49 years old in a couple of months. His favorite hero was Gandhi.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And he wrote this piece called 'My Philosophy of Life,' with six aphorisms that I have on my wall over there.
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
And, uh, it's an amazing piece where, um, he talks about how you can never be discouraged even when you lose. How, live by giving, even if you give somebody a smile, uh, we don't have enough time on this planet. Obviously he must have had a premonition because he died 20 years. You know, it's a good quote by somebody that says, 'God gave us memories so we can have roses in December.'
So there are some wonderful memories. And I think you go back to those - so that was a good question - especially during times of [00:46:00] anniversaries...
Lee Camp
Azim Khamisa
...like we just had. Those are very difficult, even 28 years later.
Lee Camp
We've been talking to Azim Khamisa. Thank you for your generosity in sharing your story and for being willing to tell it again another time. And for your work of compassion and generosity and love and forgiveness in the world. And you've honored us, and I thank you.
Azim Khamisa
You're very welcome, Lee. And thanks for, thanks for having me on your show.
Lee Camp
You've been listening to No Small Endeavor and our interview with Azim Khamisa. You can find out more about Azim and the Tariq Khamisa Foundation at tkf.org and [00:47:00] azimkhamisa.com. And you can reach Azeem through his email address azim@azimkhamisa.com.
We gratefully acknowledge the support of Lilly Endowment Incorporated, a private philanthropic foundation supporting the causes of community development, education, and religion, and the support of the John Templeton Foundation, whose vision is to become a global catalyst for discoveries that contribute to human flourishing.
Alright, thanks to all the stellar team that makes this show possible. Christie Bragg, Jakob Lewis, Sophie Byard, Tom Anderson, Kate Hays, Mary Eveleen Brown, Cariad Harmon, Jason Sheesley, Ellis Osburn, and Tim Lauer.
Thanks for listening, and let's keep exploring what it means to live a good life, together
No [00:48:00] Small Endeavor is a production of Tokens Media, LLC, and Great Feeling Studios.