Lee
[00:00:00] I'm Lee C. Camp. This is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
Zac
Most people's religious formation stopped, and so they're left with trying to solve 27-year-old problems with an eighth grade religious formation.
Lee
That's Zac Davis, associate editor of the journal America. He's one half of the duo that hosts the podcast Jesuitical, a podcast for young Catholics.
Ashley
I do think one half of the Church's social teaching is criticized heavily, while some of the great works that the Church does in the United States are ignored.
Lee
And that's Ashley McKinless, executive editor at America, and Zac's co-host.
We discussed the landscape of faith for young people in today's culture, as well as some of the pressing issues they believe the Catholic faithful, and American society at large must address.
Zac
People are liturgical beings at their heart, and when they're not being fed, they seek it out.
Lee
Coming right up![00:01:00]
I'm Lee C. Camp. This is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
My guests today are two young Catholics wrestling openly and honestly with their faith on a podcast called Jesuitical, and they're vulnerable about everything from their love of the Catholic Church's social teachings to their desire for a more robust institutional apology for the covering up of clerical sexual abuse.
Whether you're a Catholic or not, or consider yourself religious or not, this is a fascinating conversation on community, politics, and religious prejudice, and breaking down false dichotomies. Here's our interview with Ashley McKinless and Zac Davis.
Ashley McKinless is an executive editor at America, one of the leading Catholic publications in the United States. Also a host of Jesuitical, a podcast for young Catholics.
Zac Davis is an associate editor and the senior director for digital strategy for America, where he [00:02:00] writes on faith and culture. And he also co-hosts Jesuitical.
Jesuitical is produced by America Media, which is a Jesuit-run organization that's published America Magazine for more than a century. And while obviously it's a Catholic publication, they, uh, and I guess I would say along with the Jesuits, have not always seen eye to eye with the hierarchy, and often kick up some fascinating intramural debates, arguments, and conversation.
So super delighted to have today Ashley and Zac. Welcome, guys.
Ashley
Thanks so much for having us.
Zac
It is really great to be here, Lee.
Lee
Yeah, really, really pleased to have you, have you with us.
You brand your podcast, Jesuitical, as a podcast for young Catholics. So, why, why focusing on young Catholics?
Ashley
Well, when we started it, we were, we were younger. [Laughs]
Zac
So we've been doing it about six years now. So, we were, you know, sort of 20-somethings.
Ashley
Yeah. We both crossed the 30 threshold at this point. But when we started, we were in our mid 20s.
And we had this great privilege of working at a Catholic institution and having that built in community where you could have [00:03:00] conversations at the happy hour bar after work about faith in a more laid back and honest way.
And we thought, you know, there's probably a lot of Catholics in New York and in cities and towns across America who maybe had that community in college or in their youth group growing up and now find themselves in a new city, maybe with a not so nourishing parish community, and who are hungry for those, those conversations.
So those were the people we were thinking about when we started the podcast.
Zac
Yeah. You know, I, I think this is probably true, not just in religious communities, but I think people struggle a lot transitioning out of college life where you're just sort of swimming in socialization all the time and then you get dropped in a new place where it's really hard to make friends.
And so there's a, you know, a community that we wanted to build up, particularly for Catholics. But I also feel like... I was experiencing this in my own life, where if-- as soon as I mentioned that I either-- that I worked at a Catholic magazine, or that I studied theology in college, [00:04:00] you would just see, like, the faucet just come on for people.
Like they, they were so grateful to have a chance to talk to someone about religion, and I would just hear everything that they had ever thought, about their own experience, other religions, their own religion, um, why they don't identify anymore. And so, we got the sense that people were hungry to have deep, meaningful conversations, um, but not in such a formal setting. And so we try to have some fun doing it.
Ashley
Yeah. And I don't think it was an accident that this was happening under Pope Francis's papacy, because not only did that open up space for conversation within the Church, but it also, like Zac said, kind of like people's on the outside interest. They, for the first time, they were like-- saw a Catholic figure they were like, oh wow, like I can be proud of that guy. Look at the amazing things he's doing for refugees and saying about the economy.
And so there was this like, both opening within society at large for, openness to what the Catholic Church was saying, and then within the Catholic Church to have these conversations.
Lee
Yeah. You know, as an outsider looking in, it does seem to me that Pope Francis [00:05:00] is either super celebrated among a lot of Catholics, or looked upon with some suspicion by a lot of Catholics. I don't know if that's fair or not, but what's your take on that and that kind of potential strong reaction one way or the other with him?
Zac
Yeah, you're, I think you're 100 percent correct. You know, for some people, it's a breath of fresh air. Francis is, you know, he's not really interested in trying to like steer clear of controversy or confusion. He's totally fine with, sort of, people having that range of views with him.
But for a lot of people, the pope represents, sort of, stability, right? It's this institution that has, like, outlived dynasties and political traditions. And the papacy has always been there. And anytime someone comes in and tries to shake that up, it's, it really cuts deep, I think.
Ashley
Yeah. And it can be confusing for Catholics who perhaps love Pope Francis, but under Pope Benedict, or Pope John Paul II, were maybe more critical of papal authority and wanted, [00:06:00] wanted less centralized power in the church.
And now we find some of those camps swapped, where, where you got a lot of pope fans among the more liberal Catholic crowd. And as Zac said, those who, who liked the clarity that someone like Pope Benedict brought, feeling a little bit adrift and unsure where this is going.
Lee
Yeah. Another thing that I'm kind of watching... I have a dear friend who's a Catholic priest here in Nashville, and one of the things I hear him saying, and I don't know if this is true in diocese across the country, but he's saying that one of the things he's seeing is that there seems to be a swing back towards more traditional forms of Catholic liturgy and faith among a lot of younger folks.
Are y'all seeing that, or is that, is that kind of something that's kind of widely being experienced in American Catholic experience?
Zac
Sure, I mean, I'll talk about this because I have-- I certainly felt an attraction to it in college. So when I was in college, you know, I came out of sort of probably like a charismatic Catholic [00:07:00] group, youth ministry, um, and got to college, and lots of--
Lee
Which, just, 'charismatic Catholic' kind of blows some people's minds, I think.
Zac
It does. You can really find it all under the Catholic sun. I mean, um...
I got to college and started meeting some people who introduced me to this, like, I don't know, retrograde Catholic parish in Chicago that was celebrating Mass in Latin in the way they used to before, before the 1960s, you know, and I went and I was like, this is beautiful, right?
I mean, they were really, like, attentive to their music, their motions. It was choreographed with the precision of a Broadway performance. And, you know, for someone who, you know, goes to church and sometimes it feels like the priest thought of the homily on the walk from his car to the sacristy and is kind of just going through the motions, that was really moving.
And when you're a young person, I think, lots of your life is in flux, and to be honest, like, just living in a contemporary world right now, like, values and things are changing all the time. So having something that feels fixed, that [00:08:00]feels ancient, that feels intentional, those are really, really attractive to young people.
Now, there's a lot of stuff that sort of comes with that, that I eventually found not so, so great. But I don't know, Ashley, what do you, what do you see?
Ashley
Well, so one thing I think is, it's a small but vocal minority. So when we say a lot of young people are attracted to the Latin Mass, it's, it's still a minority.
But it's kind of a fascinating minority. Like every, every few months, the New York Times will discover these traditional Catholics and do a feature story on them and how they're bucking the trend in New York City by worshipping in Latin and all that.
But one thing I think that, in the United States, it's different than much of the Catholic Church in that, unfortunately, the polarization of the country has infiltrated the church. And so Latin Mass is not just coded as, oh, I like a certain type of music and liturgy. It's, I-- it comes with all of these other theological and political beliefs [00:09:00] that you kind of map onto that. And so then it becomes a flashpoint in a way that it's not in other countries in, in the Catholic Church.
Zac
Well, and particularly now that, you know, Pope Francis has tried to actually crack, crack down, I don't know, that's already a loaded word, but... restrict Mass in Latin and really tried to-- and, and so--
Lee
I didn't, I didn't realize that.
Zac
So, you know, he sort of fed into this, that was already existing, this sense of polarization, where now it's like, Pope Francis is against the, the more traditional liturgy. And that just is... like, made that polarization explode.
Lee
Huh. What's his public justification for that?
Ashley
So basically, Catholic Church had the Second Vatican Council in the '60s, and this was the big Church meeting that opened up the Catholic Church to the modern world.
And one of the major visible parts of that was leaving behind the Latin Mass, celebrating the Mass in vernacular, so in English in the United States. And, you know, that was, hard for some to accept at the beginning. And for a while, the, the Church was accommodating Catholics who were [00:10:00] attached to the more traditional liturgy by giving them, you know, special permission to celebrate it.
And so that was kind of seen as a transition period. And the goal was eventually to have a unified, single liturgy for every Catholic in the world.
And what Pope Francis said, is that these accommodations were supposed to be a stepping stone to unity. And instead, what we're seeing is they are causing divisions in the church. And we have, basically, like, two separate groups of Catholics at this point.
So his kind of tough medicine to that was to start placing greater restrictions on who and when could celebrate the Latin Mass.
Zac
Yeah. I mean, when I was attracted to the Latin Mass, I thought, okay, I'm better than everyone else because this is clearly the older way to do liturgy. Therefore, it's the better way. And I'm--
Ashley
It's the more reverent way.
Zac
Yeah, I'm, I'm better Catholic than other people. I don't think a lot of people are willing to admit that's how they feel, but I feel like that's more prevalent.
But the other thing-- you know, in [00:11:00] addition to just switching the language, the major shift that the Catholic Church was trying to enact with, you know, switching up the liturgy, was making everybody in attendance a full and active participant, right?
You used to be able to go to a Catholic liturgy and kind of just, like, be in a corner and saying your own prayers while the priest was, like, doing his thing. And, you know, now there's call and response, and you're supposed to... lay people are doing readings, and they're serving as ministers of communion.
And so, it really was trying to, like, stir up this participation from everybody. And, you know, if we're still doing it the old way and the new way at the same time, and if young people are attracted to the old way, you know, it kind of breaks this idea of a transition that Ashley was talking about.
Ashley
I do want to put in a word for the fans of the Latin Mass.
Um, I don't think all of them are anti-Francis. I don't think all of them are, you know, think they're superior to everyone else. And I do, I think--
Lee
They're not all, they're not all like Zac.
Zac
Ashley
But I want to see where they're coming from. And, and I think part of it is reaction to really [00:12:00] lackluster liturgies in English since the Second Vatican Council.
Like you can go to a lot of parishes where the music isn't great. You're supposed to be singing along, but no one's singing along and everyone's just kind of there, but not really actively participating. And so going to this, a liturgy where it's so steeped in tradition going back, not all the way to Jesus, but pretty far back.
Lee
Ashley
I can understand the, the appeal of that.
Lee
You're listening to No Small Endeavor and our conversation with Ashley McKinless and Zac Davis, hosts of the podcast Jesuitical.
I love hearing from you. Tell us what you're reading, who you're paying attention to, or send us feedback about today's episode. You can reach me at lee@nosmallendeavor.com.
You can get show notes for this episode in your podcast app or wherever you listen. [00:13:00] These notes include links to resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a PDF of my complete interview notes, and a full transcript.
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Coming up, we continue to discuss the changing landscape of faith in the lives of young people, as well as address some of the largest, most public issues facing the Catholic Church.
It's so fascinating as you're describing this because I'm thinking about the sort of, what would it be, inverse or converse, of this in what I'm watching happen in the Evangelical and Protestant world. Because in the-- first I should just say, right, certainly even churches that are not considered liturgical have a [00:14:00] liturgy, in the sense of they have an order of the way they do things and expectations of what's going to happen when they gather.
But under the heading of low church liturgy, among evangelicals especially, there's typically a very prominent personality, especially in the megachurch phenomenon, right? It's a very personality driven social gathering, where it's the preacher, the pastor... that it's kind of about that personality, and it's about the sermon.
The other stuff gets done, but it's about the sermon, it's about the personality. That's kind of the thing holding it together. So churches will grow or decline based upon who that personality is.
And then there's been a lot of, a lot of folks, and I don't know numbers, but at least the anecdotal evidence is, is plentiful, that there are a lot of folks that get weary of that. And then they decide to go become Anglicans or Episcopals or... some friends I had here in town who, in my own congregation, that went and became Catholics because they're drawn by the liturgy. And so it's interesting as [00:15:00] well that you have kind of a opposite direction of maybe sociopolitical alliances as well.
So you can kind of go from stereotypical American conservatism, politically speaking, in Evangelicalism, and then as they go toward the higher church liturgy and discover the beauties of the great Christian tradition that way, a lot of times they're finding themselves in contexts that are much more moderate or left of center sociopolitically. So it's just fascinating. But I don't know, any commentaries about that kind of contrast between what's what you're seeing happening in the Catholic world versus the Protestant world?
Zac
Well, I think something it speaks to is that people are liturgical beings at their heart. And when they're not being fed, they seek it out. And there's just been a decline in that in every other part of life.
You know, even something like going to the movies, I tend to think of as a liturgical experience, right? There is a way of doing things, there's an order, something you expect to happen, you do it with other [00:16:00] people. And now all we do is just, like, stream everything on our couch by ourselves, right? You probably even have shows that you don't even watch with your partner or your spouse. It's a very... it's become totally unbundled from the liturgical experience.
And so I think when that's not happening in other parts, people are going to look for it even more within their religious tradition.
Ashley
Yeah, and it's interesting, you have a similar movement of Anglicans to the Catholic Church, which is why you have, in America, people are shocked to find out there actually are married priests in there. There are Anglicans who are married in their church and come to the Catholic Church.
But I wanted to go back to what you were saying about, you know, strong personalities. I had never really thought about the fact that, for, for many Catholics, you know, priests are shuffled around. So, you're, you're not gonna... there are some churches where it's a big personality, has been there for a while and becomes kind of a local celebrity, but there isn't that continuity often.
And it reminds me of a conversation I was actually having with my dad on Sunday. We were talking on the phone and he was like-- he's [00:17:00] Presbyterian, but he goes to Catholic Mass with my mom every week. And he was just like, "Ashley, why are Catholics so bad at music and at preaching?"
And my only answer was like, well, we're there for the sacraments, not for all the other, you know, bonus content.
And so, yeah, so both the person of the priest is often de-emphasized, but also some of those things that would make it a more joyful and fulfilling celebration.
Lee
Which is ironic at one level, because obviously in the Catholic tradition in Europe, you have centuries and centuries of spectacular, artistic, aesthetic beauty in architecture, in music, in painting, in the arts.
And so you, you would kind of expect that, um--
Zac
We would have carried that on?
Ashley
Lee
Ashley
That was only for people who were illiterate so that they could learn the Bible through music and art. [Laughs]
Zac
But you know, I think what's happened in, I don't know, modern society is that we, we have... [00:18:00] the Church-- and I think this is maybe true across traditions, what I call, like, the electric company problem.
We basically think, like, well, we have, we have spirituality and you can't get it anywhere else. So of course you'll come to us. So we don't need to attract you with music or preaching or anything else. Cause you know, we're the electric company. You got to pay us for your electricity. You got to pay us for-- you've got to come to us for your sacraments.
And now, I think, I mean, young people are realizing very quickly that they can find spirituality in any number of places that are... at the gym, even, where there's a sense of purpose, a liturgy, people care if they're there or not, those types of things.
Lee
Yeah.
Let me shift gears and ask this question. When you think about what you're seeing in your experience in American Catholicism and then those outside of [00:19:00] Catholicism, so whether it's coming from Protestants or whether it's coming from people that don't practice any sort of faith, what do you think is the fairest common criticism of American Catholicism?
And what do you think is the most misplaced or unfair criticism of Catholicism in the United States?
Ashley
I'll start with the most unfair, if that's okay.
Lee
Ashley
I think-- well, one, people often talk about 'the bishops' as a unified single body and are very critical of 'the bishops.' And the most common criticism is, you know, they're obsessed with things that happen in the bedroom. So abortion, contraception, same sex marriage, that sort of thing.
And, it's true. They do care a lot about those things. But people pay, often pay less attention to what the bishops are saying about immigration and refugees and, and the economy and the death penalty and things of those natures.
So I do think one half of the Church's social teaching is criticized heavily while some of the, [00:20:00] the great works that the Church does in the United States are ignored.
Lee
Zac
And what's a, what's a fair, the most fair criticism?
I mean, I'll say this. Here in the United States-- I think, you know, I'll say, I'll give the same answer as Ashley. That we have placed a greater emphasis on teachings of sexuality and sexual morality above a lot of the other things that exist in our social tradition.
So you, in the same way that, like, you could say that people just aren't paying attention, I think Catholics themselves tend to put their money and their emphasis and their small groups and their committees and their political action groups and all those things, really on a couple of issues. And so I think there is some, some truth to that, that stereotype.
Ashley
And some are unhappy that we've seemed to take over the Supreme Court. [Laughs] Six out of the nine Justice-- Justices are Catholics.
So I do hear a criticism that, you know, we're, the Catholics are imposing their vision for the country from the top down in unelected ways.
Lee
Yeah, why do you, why would you [00:21:00] speculate, or do you know of any kind of sociological analysis on this, as to why the attention has fallen so heavily on the matters you mentioned - sexuality - as opposed to the great, you know, Christian tradition, the, the social teachings of the church, you know, for example.
Or, you know, I know, for example, when, when I was growing up in Alabama, Protestantism, you know, we, we would have extremely rigorous teachings about sexuality and lust. You know, our, our, our preacher was-- our preacher was rather obsessed with making sure we teenage boys didn't lust, and so we, we heard about that all the time, but I don't ever remember having heard a sermon about nuclear war, or war generally, or about racism, or about social ills and social mechanisms of poverty and so forth.
We did have some of that in our own particular Protestant tradition in the 19th century, but it was, it was [00:22:00]completely lost by the time you got to the end of the 20th century. Why do you think there's been that sort of myopic practice, at least, in American Catholicism, where that kind of rich tradition of social Catholic teaching... or, what was it, 1980s, the US Council of Catholic Bishops with The Challenge of Peace, talking in very helpful ways about war and nuclear war and so forth. Why does that not get more traction, you think, in common Catholic experience?
Zac
You know, I think in some ways the... I mean, the sexual revolution made it really difficult. I don't think the Church has still quite figured out where it fits in a post sexual revolution world.
You know, you could-- uh, it was a lot easier to be a Catholic Democrat when you were JFK. Or you had different problems, right? So JFK's problem was that people thought he was going to be, sort of, a lackey for the Pope. And Joe Biden's problem is that his own bishops and his own tradition don't think he's Catholic enough.
And so I think that [00:23:00] tells a lot of the story right there. And in terms of like... you know, you talking about your own upbringing in the Protestant South, I think a lot of the Catholic focus has actually come from some ecumenical alliances that Catholics have had with Protestants, who have found common cause, I guess, for a lot of these issues.
And so you've seen sort of, like, a joining of arms in trying to address these things.
But Ashley is much more the political junkie than I am.
Ashley
Well, no, I, I, I do think it's important not to underestimate how momentous the sexual revolution is in the life of the Church, and how relatively new it is in the life of the Church.
You know, the pill, abortion on demand, breakdown of family... like, these are all things that the Church is still coming to grips with and formulating a, a response to, and they're issues that, unlike, you know, when the bishops talk about nuclear war, you don't feel like it's either a [00:24:00] personal attack or a personal affirmation of your life.
And so people feel these issues much more deeply. And, and we don't agree. And so working those out are, it's a lot tougher. And so I think there's been a lot more public grappling with it, as opposed to something like nuclear war, where people feel like, what can I do about this?
Zac
And, you know, I also think there's the perception that, you know, the Catholic hierarchy is celibate men, right? And what do celibate--
Ashley
And the reality, not just the perception. [Laughs]
Zac
Yeah, that's-- Well, back to the fairest critique. And, you know, our hierarchy is celibate men. And so there is a sense of, what do these celibate men have to say to me in my private sexual life?
I think that, that will maybe be the biggest hurdle for a lot of people.
Lee
I remember in my grad school days at Notre Dame, I don't remember the numbers, but I was shocked to hear what percentage of the Church, of women in America, [00:25:00] Catholic Church, did use birth control in disobeying the teaching of the Church in that regard.
Ashley
Yeah, I think it's like 95 percent. Around there.
Lee
Ashley
Zac
Yeah. I mean, it's a fascinating, just, sort of case study, you know? And even like, I think-- if you think the Church is going through tumultuous times right now, like, looking at, you know, sort of, during Vatican II and right after, um, and this is where the Church really formulated its teaching, uh, about the pill and contraception, also a pretty wild time in terms of what people were debating and talking about and how to deal with, you know... it seemed like the Church was pretty close to being okay with birth control.
And then the pope sort of zagged a little bit against the commission that he appointed to study the issue. The inventor of the pill was a Catholic physician who was trying to help poor women in Boston. Um, so there is this fascinating history. And I think this is sort of, you encounter this all the time in Catholicism, where it seems like in the rearview mirror, like it, like [00:26:00] it was sort of like, monolithic, and everybody thinks and talks the same way.
But then when you get into the nitty gritty, it's-- you find this like, wide, big mess of lived experience and, and reality.
Lee
Yeah. Well, I, that's reminding me of a interview that I did with the church historian, Randall Balmer at Dartmouth. And he was looking at the rise of the religious right in the late '70s, early '80s, and talking about, we presume that Roe v. Wade was kind of the precipitating factor for the rise of the religious right. And he's arguing, actually, it was other factors.
Namely, he's, he's arguing, very provocatively, and he has a lot of evidence to make the case, that you had certain conservative Evangelical schools that wanted to continue to practice racial discrimination in their admissions policies, and once they began getting pushed by the federal government to say, well, you can't get aid if you're going to do that, that this catalyzed them to become more of a political force, and that that was the [00:27:00] precipitating factor.
And then it was the late '70s when they began to discover that they could get people catalyzed also around the issue of abortion and have a kind of a voting bloc. But, you know, he-- I remember that, that interview, him talking about how there were, there were articles published in Christianity Today, the flagship Evangelical magazine, where you had certain very prominent evangelicals making the case that while abortion is regrettable and is not ever preferred, that under certain cases and certain circumstances it may be legitimate.
And that's a shocking sort of thing, I think, to hear about Evangelicalism, is that it was more diverse and more pliable with regard to this, whatever that was, 40, 50 years ago, than it is now. And so much of it seems to have been solidified or concretized or made very rigid in alliance with US political realities as [00:28:00] opposed to more careful theological engagement.
Any thoughts on that?
Ashley
Yeah, no, so I just listened to this podcast. It's by a British journalist, Ron Johnson, called Things Fell Apart. And it's on the origins of the culture wars. And there's a fascinating episode on abortion, um, and it tells the story of this American Catholic philosopher-theologian who had lived in Switzerland, um, and had his little commune there.
And then him and his son make a documentary defending the teachings of Christianity, and they bring it to the United States. And the last part of the documentary is on abortion, and they can't get any Evangelicals to get on board with this documentary. They're going to cities and having these events, and then they find that an Evangelical is having a conference and all these, you know, feminists are coming out to protest it, and pro-life Catholics are the only ones who kind of, like, come to their defense. And so they, like, start talking, and they're like, okay, well, we'll, we'll show your documentary. And it just becomes this massive [00:29:00] success in the United States.
And I don't know if that-- that's not, like, the only reason for this, for this alliance between Catholics and Evangelicals, but it's interesting. It is kind of a contingent. It wasn't, it wasn't, you know, inevitable that this alliance was going to happen. For a very long time Evangelicals saw abortion as a, as a Catholic issue that they didn't want to touch.
Lee
Coming up is a short break, but after that, Ashley and Zac discuss some of the more troubling issues the Catholic Church is concerned with, such as immigration and sexual abuse, as well as what they see as threats and signs of life in the landscape of faith for young people.
One of you, I think maybe Ashley, you mentioned the question of [00:30:00] immigration. And that's obviously, a, a pressing concern socially, politically, and obviously as a matter of simple, simply of human compassion. But it also seems to me to be an acute concern for Catholics, given that so many immigrants are Catholic.
And I understand that maybe you've written some on the root causes of forced migration out of Central America? Is that correct?
Ashley
Lee
Can you kind of give us some of the things that you're learning from that kind of work?
Ashley
Yeah. So that was way back in 2016, and I went in, in the October before the election.
And so I went down to Guatemala and Honduras with this idea of, you know, Hillary Clinton is about to be president. And so let me do some research about what kind of investments the United States can make in Central America to kind of make it, you know, a place where people want to live and they don't have to flee for for their lives or for their economic security. And then I get back and the election happens and I suddenly have to write a completely different [00:31:00]article
Zac
Because, like, the wall. Build, build that wall was--
Ashley
Zac
If I can jump in real quick. I think, just to, recent events, you have this fascinating thing where you have a Catholic governor, Ron DeSantis, who flies, presumably a bunch of Catholic migrants, to California, and drops them off at whose doorstep? Catholic Charities, right?
And so, and so, like, as Ashley says, like, we're, you know, the Church is doing a ton of work to actually, just like, respond to the broken immigration system on the ground. But people on both sides-- like, I don't, a lot of people would tell you that Joe Biden's immigration record has not been any better than Donald Trump's, in a lot of ways. And so it's been broken from both sides, but on, the Church on the ground really is doing a lot of the work, behind the headlines that you see.
Lee
My understanding from a friend who did work in Central America for 17 years pointed me to some of the historical work that's been done that points to the fact that a lot of the immigration crises that we're still facing today relate [00:33:00] to American Cold War policies, uh, that so ripped the fabric of a lot of those countries. But did you, did you find any of that, Ashley, in your, in your work as... seeing that that still seems to be pressing on the social fabric of such communities?
Ashley
Yeah, for sure. So in, in many of these countries, El Salvador, Nicaragua, there were, you know, civil wars or government versus paramilitary groups.
And the US policy was generally to send arms and money to those who were trying to defeat communist leaders. But much of the support for those communist leaders or left wing leaders was coming from indigenous people or small landholders who had nothing and who had been living in these oligarchic countries.
And so one of the policies of, you know, or one of the tactics of these paramilitary right wing groups was, was basically genocide in much of the countries, and, and killing poor people because they were maybe [00:34:00] hiding left leaning guerrillas. And so the, the scars of those conflicts I, I definitely saw, especially when I was in Honduras and, you know, communities were decimated and still aren't recovered.
And, and unfortunately, many of the promises of left wing governments have not resulted in widespread rising into the middle class in any form.
Zac
And you even have someone like Oscar Romero, who is a saint in the Church um, who was killed in El Salvador by US backed forces, right? So he's literally shot while he's saying Mass by a group that our government was funding.
Ashley
Lee
Yeah. It's shocking.
It seems to me that folks who are doing the kind of work that you're doing have to try to hold [00:35:00] on to two things simultaneously, and so let me speculate for a moment and see how you respond to this.
It seems to me that if you're trying to talk, especially to young Catholics who are kind of trying to make their way in the world and trying to make sense of their faith, that you would have to hold on to, on the one hand, being honest and forthright about the grave failures of the Christian tradition generally and the Catholic tradition more specifically, while also trying to hold on to the claim that there's something true and good and beautiful about the basic convictions which you hold.
How have you found yourself trying to, to navigate that?
Zac
You know, I sometimes describe it as like, if I'm in like a super hyper in Catholic circle, I'll probably criticize the Church more than I normally would, but if I'm talking to people about it on the outside, I will probably defend it to a fault. And it's sort of like family in that way for me.
But I really, you know, I [00:36:00] wouldn't spend so much time talking about it and being honest about some of our faults if I, if I didn't care so much about it, right? If I didn't love this Church so much and believe that a guy died and rose from the dead, then I'd probably, I don't know, go make a bunch of money at Google or something.
I don't know. Ashley, how do you feel?
Ashley
This just made me think of, recently-- so the Catholic Church every couple years has what we call World Youth Day, where thousands, hundreds of thousands of young Catholics flock to a certain city, the Pope comes, there's liturgies, um, and it's a very joyful celebration.
And the organizer of this year's World Youth Day in Lisbon caught some flack for saying recently in an interview that, you know, we're not trying to convert young people. We're not trying to convert young people to Christ. And people just, like, grabbed onto that line out of context to be like, the, the bishop in charge of the Catholic World Youth Day doesn't care about converting people to Christ.
But I think [00:37:00] that's one of the unfair, you know, interpretation of what he was saying. You know, Pope Francis has talked about how we're not supposed to proselytize. You know, we encounter people, and the first step of that encounter is not to say, you know, are you gonna, you know, are you getting baptized yet?
Zac
Ashley
You, you know, get your confirmation finally? It's much more human than that. It's... yeah, so my, my personal approach to this is just trying to, you know, exude joy. The joy that comes from knowing that there's a merciful God that has already forgiven me, and then talk to people and hope that, you know, at some point they're a little bit curious, like, oh, like, where's that coming from?
And instead of, you know, starting out with, with the catechism.
Zac
Yeah. I feel like most people's, like, experience of their religious formation stopped, I don't know, in confirmation. And so they're left with trying to solve 27-year-old problems with an eighth grade religious [00:38:00] formation. And a lot of that is because the Church has failed them, and when they had questions, they were told, stop asking those questions, here's the answer.
And if I, if we can create a space where people feel okay to ask those questions, and, and dig into those curiosities, and still feel like they're allowed in the Church or be able to claim this Catholic identity in some way, then I think we've succeeded.
Ashley
And especially, one other thing, is just, you know, people our age, they do care a lot about social justice. And they often see that as belonging to the realm of politics or activism, and they don't know about what is often called the Catholic Church's best kept secret, of Catholic social teaching. And they don't know about the amazing work that Jesuit Refugee Service or Catholic Charities is doing on the ground.
So the Catholic Church is definitely, like, shooting itself in the foot by not, you know, leading with some of that when it comes to talking to young people.
Lee
Yeah.
I don't know, I would imagine [00:39:00] that one of the critiques that gets raised often, and this is obviously a very difficult, painful one, but the clerical sexual abuse.
What are you seeing with people, young people trying to grapple with the brokenness of the faith and yet still wanting to try to find a way to continue to claim what they see as true and good? What's that kind of particular, obviously very painful, sort of process like?
Ashley
So at America, each year we have, we have interns and fellows, which means each year we get to encounter new, new young people. So people in college or just out of college.
And, you know, for the first time we're having people who were maybe born after 2002 when the sexual abuse crisis in Boston first made headlines. And so they, they really have only ever known a Church with a history of sexual abuse, obviously. And so that, that's the only Church they've known.
And so one, I'm in, I'm kind of in awe of their [00:40:00] faith, for, for sticking with it. But I think they... I was talking to one of our current interns, and what they want is a real apology. That's what they feel like they haven't gotten yet. They've gotten, they've gotten some transparency, yes. Some accountability for priests, though not often for, for bishops who engaged in cover up.
But there hasn't felt like there's been a real apology, a ringing of shirts, and like, you know, bishops lowering themselves, and in a way that feels authentic and not defensive. And so that's, that's the hunger I see among young people when it comes to the crisis.
Zac
At the same time, I think what you, you see in the rest of the world, the rest of the world is not free of sexual scandal.
And I think that's kind of come, come to the fore since the Me Too movement. And so in some ways, I think some people like lead to-- can fall into cynicism, that like every-- there's human brokenness everywhere.
But [00:41:00] I think it's hurt a lot more in the Church, partly because of the, like, religious identification that comes with, like, just see-- like hearing that, like, someone you trusted as a spiritual father has done this, or it's someone that is... been trusted to, like, clean this up and fix it, just covered it up and shuffled someone around.
I think that's the last part where young people still feel like the Church is too defensive, as Ashley said. And there's still, like, this sense that we never really reckoned with, why would you cover that up?
Like that, like that doesn't make any sense to people still. And that's the apology I think we're still waiting for.
Lee
Are you seeing any sort of traction towards such, uh, an official apology?
Zac
Yeah, I think so. I mean, this is, and this is the hard thing, is it's not, it doesn't really, like, make news when it happens. But I, I think Francis has done a lot to sort of bring this issue to the forefront and really try to-- you know, it's been, [00:42:00] it has been an issue in the United States for, since 2002, but the rest of the global Church is really, like, grappling with it at different phases. Some people are, it's just coming to the fore. Other people are sort of maybe somewhere in between where we, the US is and at the very beginning.
And so he's really made it an effort to try and make this a global priority. I mean, there have been changes to Church law to make, make that more efficient. But that said, there's still, still a ways to go, I think.
Ashley
Yeah, and I think-- so there have been a few bishops here and there, um, who have had, you know, very large Masses of reconciliation, where, you know, the bishop will literally, like, lay face down in front of the altar and repent for his sins and for the sins of the Church. And I do think, I do think we do need more just visceral, visual moments of, of reconciliation and apology from, from the Church, like that.
Zac
Yeah. And it's, I mean, this is just, like, a Catholic problem, but how does an institution apologize, right?
Lee
Zac
Especially one with such a massive history. The answer's not obvious... right?
Lee
Zac
And so, and even if you make what is a perfect apology to one person, another person is going to see some things that were missing.
Ashley
Yeah. And in addition to official changes to Church policy, Pope Francis has made an effort to, whenever he visits a country, visiting with victims of sexual abuse and apologizing to them personally. So it is happening in a, in a piecemeal fashion, but yeah, what a, what a universal apology looks like is unclear at this point.
Lee
Yeah.
Any other sorts of glaring threats to your own sort of sense of Catholic identity that you're kind of regularly grappling with, or any sorts of things that you're seeing that you're just really happy about and thankful for that you're seeing in American Catholicism?
Zac
You know... let's start with the threats.
There's, I think, a couple that are just sort of, like, the old fashioned threats, like the glimmer of, you know, consumerism [00:44:00] and lust and selfishness. I think those, those sins are ancient, ever ancient, and ever new in some ways. And I find myself, you know, just constantly looking around in my own life and the life of my friends and being like, those are still threats to living a Christian life and living in a community of beloveds.
In terms of other things, I think we're becoming a lot more isolated and the disintegration of our, our institutions and our communities is deadly, possibly, for American church life in the Catholic churches. No exception to that.
Ashley
Yeah. And the pandemic only accelerated that trend towards isolation. We still see that less people are going back to in church or in person services, uh, since before the pandemic.
And I will say, that has been a threat in my personal life. You know, before the pandemic, I, I was pretty, pretty good about never missing Mass on Sunday. And then the pandemic broke what I thought was [00:45:00] a really deeply ingrained habit for a few months, and then on the other side of it, I found myself more often making, making excuses for myself. And that's something I'm, I'm still working on and I would say is a, is a, uh threat to my faith life.
But I will say in terms of joys, like when I have gone back to my pre-pandemic parish, I see new young people. Like I've been going to the same church since 2013, and I'm realizing that like, I'm not the youngest one there anymore.
And every time I go, I'm seeing these people who, like me, moved to the city after college and are still committed to their faith and bringing new life and energy to the parish. So it's easy to fall into despair and cynicism, you know, like all-- the nuns are winning, uh, and everyone's leaving the church. But that's not actually true.
Zac
You know, and I think there's, like... in the Catholic world, because it's so big, you can find really cool and interesting pockets of really fascinating things happening, whether it-- and maybe your, you know, [00:46:00] your little church community or your parish is kind of dead and depressing and it does not bring you any joy when you go there.
But I don't know, maybe there's something cool happening at a Catholic hospital or a Catholic soup kitchen or a Catholic worker farm or a Catholic magazine or a Catholic podcast. I don't know, Jesuitical could be one. You know, there are these pockets of sort of not traditional church based expressions of religious life, that are maybe socially acted, you know, oriented, that are really cool and exciting and I wish more people would seek those out and discover them.
Lee
We've been talking today to Ashley McKinless and Zac Davis, both who work for America Media, which publishes America Magazine, Jesuit magazine published for more than a century now. And they are co-hosts of the podcast Jesuitical, a podcast for young Catholics.
Zac and Ashley, thanks so much for being with us today. It's been great.
Zac
It's been a delight, Lee. Thanks so much.
Ashley
Thank you, [00:47:00] Lee.
Lee
You've been listening to No Small Endeavor and our interview with Ashley McKinless and Zac Davis, hosts of the podcast Jesuitical, a podcast for Catholic young people.
We gratefully acknowledge the support of Lilly Endowment Incorporated, a private philanthropic foundation, supporting the causes of community development, education, and religion.
And the support of the John Templeton Foundation, whose vision is to become a global catalyst for discoveries that contribute to human flourishing.
Our thanks to all the stellar team that makes this show possible. Christie Bragg, Jakob Lewis, Sophie Byard, Tom Anderson, Kate Hays, Mary Eveleen Brown, Cariad Harmon, Jason Sheesley, Ellis Osburn, and Tim Lauer. [00:48:00]
Thanks for listening, and let's keep exploring what it means to live a good life together.
No Small Endeavor is a production of PRX, Tokens Media, LLC, and Great Feeling Studios.