Lee
This is Tokens. I'm Lee C. Camp.
We talk a lot about human flourishing on this podcast. And human flourishing, it seems somewhat obvious, needs to avoid self-hatred. But I have to confess that I've had my doubts quite a while about what seems to be a pop-psychology cult of self-esteem. Does -everybody- really have to get a trophy just for participating? Does everybody really get an 'A' just for taking the class?
I don't -think- so.
And then I hear about Kristin Neff, professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. She is a vocal critic of the cult of self-esteem. She says a mis-placed emphasis upon self-esteem can underwrite some substantive negative consequences.
Kristin
Bullying for instance, and that can be physical aggression or it can be like spreading rumors, gossip about people. Prejudice, for instance, and narcissism they're so invested in their high self-esteem that they start distorting reality. And they can't even admit the slightest flaw, or they can admit that they've made a mistake in order to protect that high self-esteem.
Lee
On the other hand, if you're like me, you've perhaps dealt more with the habit of sharp self-criticism; even self-hatred.
Kristin
Shame, and self-criticism what you're really doing is you're tapping into the bodies sympathetic nervous system or sometimes called the fight flight or freeze response. Unfortunately, when we're constantly activating our sympathetic nervous system and it increases like cortisol levels and it can lead to things like heart disease.
Lee
So if neither self-esteem nor the practice of self-hatred are helpful ways forward in human flourishing, what then? Professor Neff advocates a different, and more dependable friend than self-esteem.
Self-compassion is more of a stable unconditional friend.
Self-compassion is really about supporting oneself. It's really framing our experience in light of the shared human experience.
Lee
Today: an in-depth conversation in which we discuss the ways self-compassion may be a healthier, more effective alternative to self-esteem; as well as the practices that may help us to develop a framework of self-compassion in our own lives.
All this, coming right up.
Interview
Lee
Kristin Neff received her doctorate from the University of California at Berkeley, is currently an associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. Kristin is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research. In addition to writing numerous academic articles on the topic.
She's also the author of the bookSelf-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself, and most recentlyFierce Self-Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power, and Thrive. Welcome,Kristen.
Kristin
Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Lee
Yeah. Thanks for joining us so much. I always like it when someone can be a little bit of a contrarian. You're somewhat of a contrarian to the pop culture celebration of self-esteem, it seems.
Kristin
Yes. Well, it's not just me. It's really the whole field of psychology. I'm not, I'm not a lone voice in this. If you define self-esteem as a positive judgment of worth, the feeling that I'm a good person versus a bad person, there's no problem with having self-esteem.
It's definitely better to have self-esteem than to hate yourself. The whole problem is how do you get your high self-esteem? Right? And so what we know in psychology, there's so many research studies that show a lot of people get it in a pretty unhealthy way, like doing special and above average.
Right? It's not okay to be average, which means we always have to be better than others, which means we're always like comparing ourselves to others, which means, you know, we might get jealous or we might bully people or, you know, other people make us feel insecure. So we feel less connected to them. But probably the biggest problem with self-esteem is that it tends to be contingent.
In other words, we only feel good about ourselves when we succeed or when we look the way we want to look or when people like us, but you know, what happens when things don't go our way? Self-esteem is a fair-weather friend, right? It's there for us in the good times, but it deserves us when times get tough.
Right? And that was my idea about self-compassion as more of a stable unconditional friend.
Lee
I always find it also fascinating when things trotted out in good intention, end up having unanticipated ill consequences. So you talk a number of times about the ways in which the focus upon self-esteem actually might be underwriting narcissism, and even bullying.
Kristin
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, if you get bullying for instance, and that can be physical aggression or it can be like spreading rumors, gossip about people. We know that one of the reasons early adolescents start to bully is to raise their self-esteem, right? They don't have a lot to go on. So one way they feel superior their own mind is by picking on other people, putting other people down.
It's not just adolescents. I mean, if you look at prejudice, for instance, now prejudice is complex, but at least one of the things that's going into it is I want to feel that my, racial, religious, ethnic, whatever group is superior to others. And that's one of the reasons I engage in prejudice because it boosts my sense of self-esteem.
So, and narcissism what happens with narcissism is when people. They're so invested in their high self-esteem that they start distorting reality, right? And they can't even admit the slightest flaw, or they can admit that they've made a mistake or anything that at all threatens their ego.
They become very, very defensive in order to protect that high self-esteem. So, in other words, the need, to feel good. And the discomfort was realizing that yeah, some things we aren't so good at, you know, it's kind of part of being human. It can really create an unhealthy dynamic. Perfectionism is another problem with it, you know, we have to be perfect at everything. It's not okay. It's the students getting an, A minus who come to me in office hours to talk about the grade, not those getting the B plus, so.
Lee
Yeah, I was definitely one of those, that was perfectionistic and especially around academic stuff. And I've, laughed through the years about this one story in fourth grade where I got my first B in my social studies class in fourth grade, and I was so upset and so distraught about it, weepy even I think.
That at the end of the day, my social studies teacher came to me and said, oh, I made a mistake. You actually made an A. And I thought, oh no, either she did make a mistake or much worse would be if she were so codependent as to help me a deal with my perfectionism.
So you were instead promoting self-compassion, you've even called yourself a self-compassion evangelist.
So tell us a little bit about how this approach is different.
Kristin
Yeah. And I call myself an evangelist because, you know, back when I started researching it about almost 20 years now, it wasn't very popular, the concept. People had only written about it. So I kind of took it on myself to spread the good word, so to speak, because my research was showing that it was such a powerful source of wellbeing. So self-compassion, it's also a sense of self-worth, but it's not a judgment or an evaluation. That one is good versus bad. It's simply, compassion, concern with the alleviation of suffering. It certainly, it's just caring about yourself, right? Your sense of worth comes to the fact that you're a human being like all other human beings, as precious as any other.
And so self-compassion is really about supporting oneself. Being there for oneself when times are difficult. And by the way, because it's compassion, right? This is particular to the context of suffering. Actually in the Latin passion means to suffer, com means with, so it's a way of being with yourself in times of suffering, whether that's because you failed or made a mistake or feeling inadequate in some way or something like the pandemic or, you know, you have a health condition or something's going on in your life that's very difficult.
It's a way of relating to yourself in times of suffering with kindness, care, and connection. It's not self-pity, it's not like woe is me. It's just recognizing, hey, you know, life is difficult for everyone. I'm a human being, like all other human beings. And the research is just phenomenally powerful in terms of showing that if you can relate to your difficulties with compassion, as opposed to harsh judgment or shame or feelings of isolation, it makes us much stronger healthier mentally andphysically actually.
Lee
Hmm. Yeah. I want to come back and talk about some of those studies in a moment, but before we go there, you've talked about at least, three different components of self-compassion and one being just kind of kindness to ourselves. So could you tell us a little bit more about that one?
Kristin
Right. Yeah. So, you might say the emotional tone of compassion is one of warmth and kindness, right? As opposed to being harsh or judgmental. The way actually most of us are, most of us tend not to be kind to ourselves, especially when we've made a mistake. So just as compassion for a friend means you're kind and warm and supportive to that friend.
We're also kind and warm and supportive to ourselves. But it's more than kindness alone. The reason it's compassion and not just kindness. The reason I didn't just call it self-kindness is because there's two other elements. One is actually mindfulness. So I actually learned about self-compassion, as part of my mindfulness meditation practice, that's where I learned about it in the Buddhist tradition.
It makes absolutely no sense to be compassionate to others, but not yourself because of course the self and the other interconnected, right? And so, in order to be present or in order to give ourselves compassion for suffering, we need to be able to be present with it. In other words, if we ignored it, if we tend to stop there or we just stiff upper lip it, or on the other hand, if we're lost in it, if we have no perspective or just like wallowing in it, we actually can't have compassion.
And so mindfulness the awareness of, wow, I'm really having a hard time right now. Is there anything I can do to help? In order to ask that question, we actually need to have some mindful awareness of our pain. That's totally the first step. So you're mindful of your pain. You're kind to yourself because it hurts basically. And then really important, a sense of interconnectedness of, common humanity I call it. So what's the difference between pity and compassion, right? So if I pity you, I'm looking down on you, I'm feeling, sorry for you, or if I'm involved in the self-pity, I'm feeling sorry for myself. Pity is different than compassion.
So compassion is like, hey, I've been there. There's an inherent sense of connectedness of humanity in the experience. And the same thing with self-compassion it's not poor me. It's really framing our experience in light of the shared human experience. Okay. Everyone's imperfect. Everyone struggles. You know, some people struggle more than others.
Yes. It doesn't deny that. But nonetheless, an intrinsic part of being human is the right to compassion from this perspective. Anyway.
Lee
Yeah, that's fascinating. Two things come to mind there. One. Well, if you give some commentary on this, you know, I mean, in the Christian tradition, you've got Jesus saying the two greatest commandments are, you shall love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And the second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself. And so that second commandment presumes one has the capacity to rightly love oneself. But I think oftentimes in the Christian tradition, we're so fearful of selfishnessthat I don't think we've done a sufficient job of teaching this self-compassion that you're pointing to, but any observations about that?
Kristin
Yeah. Well first of all, if, if the commandment had been written differently, like love your neighbors, as you love yourself, you wouldn't have any friends in the sense that, right? So, you know, you do unto others as you would have them do onto you. But actually, if you just extrapolate how you treat yourself to others, could you imagine if you told your best friend the things you say to yourself, I mean, they would like slam the door in your face probably.
And so this idea is really a shame. This idea that self-compassion is selfish because what we know is the more compassion flows inward, the more it can flow outward, right? And especially if you put it like in a Christian context, if you felt like for some reason that you are the only source of your compassion and you could only generate maybe five units.
Well, yeah. Then maybe if I gave three to myself I'll have two left over for you, but really the idea is you're tapping into this larger compassion. If you're Christian, you can think of it as God's love or Jesus' love. In other words, you aren't like creating it. You're tapping into this field of compassion, which is actually much bigger than yourself. And so when you do that, when you, allow that compassion to flow inward, when you allow yourself to receive warmth and kindness and support and care, what it means is you actually have more resources available to give to others.
And really importantly, to give to others without burning out. Because what happens is what, giving this just one way. And we just, you know, run ourselves, ragged, caring for others all the time. And we don't care for ourselves, including we don't care for the pain of caring for others, right? what happens is we never really start to burn out.
But when you can be kind of warm and supportive towards yourself, and the research is very clear on this, you reduce burnout. Uh, you increase your ability to be satisfied with being a caregiver, as opposed to having it exhaust and drain you. And it's more sustainable overtime.
Lee
You've raised this issue of self-pity. Could you talk a little bit about the ways in which self-pity might be one potential side effect of self-esteem. And then a little bit more about how self-compassion undercuts or subverts self-pity?
Kristin
Yeah. So it really is about connectedness, right? And again, that's one of the problems with self-esteem is that, there are different sources of self-esteem actually self-compassion, you might say, is a healthy source of self-esteem is like unconditional. I mean it's not personal, but self-esteem is often very personal.
The focus is really on the individual, especially as distinct from others in comparison to others, better than others, special from others, right? And that focus on the individual self. Well in the good times, maybe you've got some high self-esteem but, when things aren't so good, it can lead to shame.
It can lead to, um, harsh self-criticism. It can lead to self-pity like woe is me. When we forget that, actually not only does everyone suffer, actually, a lot of people suffer a lot more we're somewhere suffering, right? Right. Now we forget that when we lose our mindfulness and we're just kind of lost in our, our negative feelings.
And so it self-compassion does is by having this larger frame, this frame of interconnectedness, this frame of community, you might say. Then that means we can include ourselves in the circle of compassion. You know, we don't, think we're more important than others, but we also don't think we're less important than others.
In other words, we're a human being, like all of the others, everyone is worthy of warm, compassionate,caring response.
Lee
Some years ago, I learned a very helpful meditation exercise that pointed directly to what you're talking about here from, uh, Pema Chödrön, I think is how you pronounce her name, in her bookWhen Things Fall Apart. And, Tonglen, I think is the name of the meditation exercise. Yeah. And so it was just, fascinating to me the way this worked.
And you know, as I understood what she was saying, first I should note that I was in a context, a personal moment in which, my wife and I were very concerned about the health of one of our sons. It was in a very distressing situation and fear even potentially for his life. And, I found myself too often falling prey to self-pity around that. And so, as I understood her meditation practice, you know, it was that she points to this sort of common psychological tendency that we have to want to avoid our pain. And we kind of psychologically turn away from our pain.And so she counsels as, one is meditating.
And then you breathe in, let the pain hit you and feel the pain to be present to the pain. And then as you breathe out to kind of have this sense of acceptance in the sense of a desire for peace, for oneself and compassion with oneself. And then the turn that was so helpful, was that then you began to take attention to other people who have that same sort of pain and then let their pain hit you in the second move of the meditation. And then as you breathe out to have a desire for compassion for all of those people. And as I practiced that, it was amazing to me the way in which that moment in which I would be tempted to self-pity. All of the sudden became a mechanism for solidarity with others, rather than focusing on myself.
It was, it terribly helpful sort of thing.
Kristin
Yeah. Yeah. So just recognizing interconnection. So I'll tell you a story related to that. So my son's autistic, right? So, I certainly learned a lot raising him and my self-compassion practice came in handy. And I remember one time. I was at a park with him and there are the kids at the playground was a beautiful day.
They were kids were playing with each other, interacting with their parents and here's little Rowan. At that point, he was really lost in his autism and he was just banging, he was sitting on the slide, banging it, you know, entranced by the sound totally absorbed by the sound, not interacting with me or the other kids.
And I started to fall into self-pity, you know why me? You know, it's not the plan I signed up for like feeling sorry for myself, but because of my self-compassion practice, you know, I remembered common humanity. Because I was kind of unconsciously assuming that all these parents had these perfect unproblematic relationships with their kids.
And I caught myself and I said, Kristen, really? I mean, yeah, maybe it's not autism, but surely all of these parents or kids will have, you know, physical challenges, mental health challenges, or at the very least every single one of these parents will have some sort of challenge with their kids because that's what it means to be a parent, right?
Being a parent is not like problem-free. You run into challenges and you do your best and you love them the best you can. And so the moment I met made that reframe, I went from feeling all isolated and alone to really connected to all those other parents on that playground. And so that's one of the most powerful aspects one of the most empowering aspects of self-compassion is that sense of connectedness with others, although the word self is there, ironically, you reducing the focus on the separate self, right? And you really just seeing yourself as part of alarger whole.
Lee
Yeah. And along with that, I began to actually keep a written list of other parents that I would begin to talk to and realized the deep pain or the deep difficulty or the deep fear that they were having about their own children. You know, just to make intentional this sort of practice of it doesn't have to be just about me, right.
That again, this self-compassion can lead to a shared compassion.That's terribly helpful.
Kristin
Lee
Recently had a conversation with a psychiatrist named Curt Thompson, and he talks a lot about shame and vulnerability. And he also speaks to the kind of both neurological and physiological nature of shame, the negative effects of how shame can change us physiologically.
And you also speak to the physiological damage of being harsh to oneself versus the physiological goods of self-compassion. So can you tell us a little bit more about the sorts of studies that, have been done or are being done that point to these things?
Kristin
Yeah, so, what we know is that, a lot of this impacts our autonomic nervous system. So for instance, shame, and self-criticism what you're really doing is you're tapping into the bodies sympathetic nervous system or sometimes called the fight flight or freeze response, right? So when you think about it, the system comes online whenever we feel threatened, but when the threat is ourselves, like we feel inadequate or we made some mistake or we failed at something, we try to get safe by fighting ourselves with self-criticism or maybe fleeing from ourselves in the sense of shame is actually that sense of fleeing from the perceived judgment of others. Like we withdraw or we get stuck, we freeze, right? That kind of rumination when we can't get out of our own mindset, we can keep going over and over it.
So, first of all, just to say, we shouldn't judge yourselves for this reaction. We're just trying to stay safe because it's, very threatening and scary when we feel inadequate or we failed at something.And so unfortunately when we're constantly activating our sympathetic nervous system, it increases like cortisol levels and it can lead to things like heart disease.
So what self-compassion does is it actually makes us feel safe a different way, and that's through the care system, which is related to the attachment system, parasympathetic nervous system reaction. So in other words, the way human beings are designed is when we feel cared for maybe like someone's touching us, or we feel loved, we feel we belong.
Then, our bodies calm down. We start increasing heart rate variability for instance, and releasing things like oxytocin, which makes us feel safe and connected. So that's actually what self-compassion does, even though we're doing it with ourself, our body doesn't really distinguish very clearly.
So for instance, we know when we give ourselves compassion, we reduce cortisol and increase heart rate variability. So we're actually literally helping our bodies feel more safe. And that's for instance, one of the reasons self-compassion is linked to more physical health things like better immune function, because when your body's operating, feeling more safe, it actually functions better and you get sick less often, you sleep better also.
Lee
You're listening to Tokens: public theology, human flourishing, and the good life. We're most grateful to have you joining us.
And hey -- we'd love for you to come join us in Nashville... check out our website at tokensshow.com for more info....
This is our interview with Kristin Neff on her bookSelf-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself. Coming up, we'll hear more about the ways in which self-compassion works to alleviate personal and relational wounds, as well as the powerful ways that it may undermine shame.
Part two in just a moment.
Halfway Point
Lee
You're listening to Tokens and our interview with Kristin Neff.
Can you talk a little bit more then about what the suggested interventions might be or suggested best practices to cultivate this? I mean, you've kind of pointed it as somewhat with mindfulness meditation, but what are other people saying, okay, I want to try this.
What would be some first steps you might suggest?
Kristin
So, what's really been surprising in my research is that it's easier than I had imagined it would be for people to be self-compassionate. And it's hard to get in the habit of it because we're used to being critical. The things we already know how to be compassionate. It's not like learning a new skill.
We already know how to be compassionate to others. So we already have the template that's fully formed. We really just have to give ourselves permission to use these skills with ourselves. One very easy thing you do, and actually there's research showing that this helps to dismantle shame is if you just bring in intentionally the three components of self-compassion.
So in other words, you're mindful of the fact that you're hurting, that you're feeling emotional pain. It could also be physical pain. Alright, this really hurts. It hurts to feel this way. I'm scared and frightened, or, you know, I feel horrible, whatever it is you're feeling. So validating that emotion with mindfulness.
Remembering that you aren't alone, and again, just reminding yourself, okay, there's nothing wrong with me for feeling this way. You know, this is part of being human. I'm not alone. So just intentionally reminding yourself of your humanity. And then giving yourself some words of kindness. And a very easy thing to do is to think, well, what would I say to a good friend who was in the exact same situation I'm in.
You know, what would I say to be kind and supportive to them? We already know that and it kind of what tone of voice would I use. And then you just turn that inward and say the same thing with yourself. And there's research that shows, for instance, people who did that in the letter, writing exercise once a day for seven days, their happiness increased by six months and the depression decreased for three months.
So six months, more happiness, three months, less depression, which is pretty powerful for writing a little letter to yourself every day.
Lee
Yeah, for just a one-week exercise?
Kristin
One-week exercise, just once a day. So again, it's pretty powerful stuff and it's not rocket science.
Lee
Right. I've said to myself, a number of times through the years, that for me, that there seems to be a fine line between sadness and self-pity. I tell myself that, take knowledge of my sadness. This not only legitimate but important, but it seems like there's a slope sometimes where if I'm not careful, I'll slide off into self-pity.
Could you help us think through some about how does one, not slide across over to self-pity out of legitimate sadness?
Kristin
Yeah. And so that's where these other two components of mindfulness and common humanity come in. So if you think about self-pity, or you might say feeling moved by your own suffering is the same with compassion and pity. But, so what happens with self-pity. The reason we talk about wallowing in self-pity is because we become completely absorbed by the sadness.
We have no perspective. It completely, um, colors our mindset. We aren't able to see anything beyond our sadness. We're lost in it. In other words, we've lost our mindfulness. So what mindfulness does is just to be aware that I'm sad. So there's, being consumed by sadness. Then there's being aware, oh, I'm feeling really sad.
And so, as long as there's that little bit of awareness there, we don't become totally consumed by it. We've got some perspective so that we can see more options. And then again, so the other thing that defines self-pity is the sense that I'm all alone this being cut off from other people.
Um, so when you remember, actually it's not just me, you know, then you're just kind of honoring yes. Sadness is difficult for all human beings, right? But one of the things that mindfulness gives you is it gives you the perspective needed to say well, what can I do right now that might help?
Right? So when we're lost in self-pity, it's like, oh, it's forever. And it's always, and there's no way out. And we just go down this rabbit hole. But when remember actually what we do have some resources, what might they do that would help in this moment, then we aren't, victim to our self-pity.
We actually have more choices and take action.
Lee
Yeah. What do you think are, or what have you seen in studies that point to cultural or sociological roots of the tendency of harsh self-judgment?
Kristin
Right. So, there are some cultural differences. So, for instance, Anglo-Saxon cultures tend to be more, self-critical kind of that Puritan background. Confucian cultures. So it's not just an East West thing. Confucian cultures, often people, are raised with the idea that self-criticism is beneficial.
This is kind of confusing. There's the difference between constructive criticism, which is beneficial and harsh criticism, like name calling, belittling, which actually isn't beneficial. So that's a cultural thing. But also gender, gender plays into it. My new book, you mentioned the title it's written for women in particular, because women actually less self-compassionate than men, largely because of gender role socialization. So it doesn't apply to women who are kind of more androgynous. You combine the, the male and female traditional gender role, but that's because, first of all, we're socialized to be self-sacrificing. I mean, everyone is, but women really are.
Women are actually valued for being self-sacrificing. So, what that means is women, feel less entitled to meet their needs. Whereas men actually they're a little more self-compassionate because yeah, it deserves some compassion too. But women because there the gender role socialization tells us that you know, we need to be self-sacrificing to be a good woman that gets interpreted to being, you know, we don't meet our own needs.
We're always putting others first, right? So it's harder to be self-compassionate. And then also, women are a little more self-critical there's a lot of things. But partly because women have less power in society and anyone who feels more threatened tends to view self-criticism as a way to feel safe.
So it's kind of a means of trying to control. Like if I criticize myself, well, maybe I'll make myself look the way I want to look or act the way I want to look. So therefore I'll be safe, which is kind of, again, remembering that self-criticism is the safety behavior. So gender culture plays into it.
A lot of factors play into it. Also, you know, the type of family you were raised in also makes a big difference. If your parents were really critical, you're more likely to be self-critical as well. So we come by it, honestly, you might say.
Lee
Yeah. Are you familiar with, you talked about the puritanical background, Anglo-Saxon culture. Any sorts of observations about different strands in Christian theology that may help underwrite one versus the other sort of approach to these things?
Kristin
I think I'd be out of my depth if I tried to answer that question.
I know there are different types of Christian theology and some are a little more punitive than others, I don't want to generalize. You know, so for instance, like if you could Catholicism, I think the Catholicism system can be practiced in a very loving way or in a very punitive way.
And I, I just wouldn't feel comfortable saying one thing or another.
Lee
Yeah. As is the case about most Protestantisms.
Kristin
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it really just depends on how you interpret it. It's funny. I did teach a group of Catholic nuns once about self-compassion though. And it's so funny, they totally got it. They just interpreted everything I said through the lens of Jesus.
Lee
Kristin
Oh, of course. Yeah, I, I need to let Jesus's love in. And then once they reframed it, they felt uncomfortable with the idea of self-compassion. But they actually felt very comfortable with the idea of Jesus giving them compassion. And they actually were able to use that as the vehicle to give themselves love and support.
Lee
To receive thecompassion of Christ to themselves.
Kristin
Exactly. That's right. You know, I really do think that this fits in with, whatever theological frame you want to put on it, or, you know, or not submitting it, how you use yourtheological frame.
Lee
Depending on what the larger theological frame is, I suppose. Yeah.
Kristin
But you know, if it's really about love, which is supposed to be about love, then it makes total sense.
Lee
So let's imagine somebody listening and they say, well, I don't know. That all sounds so soft and touchy feely, and they might say don't we need to be harsh to ourselves to stay motivated. What would you, what would you say to that?
Kristin
Yeah, so research shows it's the exact opposite. So first of all, harsh criticism does kind of work as a motivator just as like with our kids. Like harsh punishment scaring our child into doing something. It kind of works. But we know from the parenting literature is it has lots of unintended consequences.
So like if you beat your child or you scare your child or shame your child, it's going to cause them to have performance, anxiety, for instance. And that performance anxiety will actually undermine their ability to achieve their best, right? They'll also become, afraid of failure because they know the consequences are so harsh that they do fail.
And so fear of failure actually undermines your motivation.
So the motivation of self-compassion comes from care, not fear, right? So in other words, we aren't going to be lazy or self-indulgent or give up because that wouldn't be caring, right? If we care about ourselves, we want to reach your goals, we want to improve, we want to be happy in life.
The research shows this. People who are self-compassionate, their standards are just as high. Their goals are just as high. The whole difference is what happens when they fail to meet those goals. Well, instead of shaming themselves, therefore I'm the failure and shame is not exactly the most motivating mindset.
Maybe you're familiar with that, right? So when you're full of shame, you can't learn, you can't do anything that kind of like pulls the rug out from underneath yourself. So self-compassionate people do because it's okay to fail. That means they're more able to learn from their failure. Oh, okay. Failure.
That's part of life. That's part of being human. That's how I learn. And so because of that, they have more of a learning orientation. They have a growth mindset, which means they're able to learn from their failure. They are less likely to be afraid of failure, and they're more likely to try again when they do fail.
So again, it's an actually much more effective way to motivate yourself and it's more sustainable in the long run. So it uses encouragement, constructive criticism, as opposed to name calling and belittling.
Lee
I've read in some of Brené Brown's work where she makes this distinction that I find helpful in saying that if you take the common distinction between shame and guilt, that shame is a judgment, a negative judgment about the self as such. And guilt is a judgment about a behavior vis-a-vis some norm or standard. And then that shame, she says, is highly correlated with things like, addiction, bullying, inability to meet one's goals and so forth. Whereas guilt, a highly developed notion of guilt actually helps you grow.
And that seems to correlate with what you're getting at.
Kristin
Yeah. Yeah. So they, cause they kind of overlap, shame and guilt. They look at shame-free guilt and guilt free shame. So when you kind of separate them out and what we know is self-compassion is negatively linked to shame and positively linked to guilt. And the guilt that doesn't have the shame component because, it's actually healthy to feel guilty if you're saying, okay, I did it.
I take responsibility. What can I do to fix the situation? So self-compassion actually, it enhances people's ability to own up to their mistakes and to try to repair them. Like people say, sorry, more often if you're self-compassionate because you can, you can admit it. Okay. I'm so sorry. What can I do to fix things?
Lee
I know certainly personally for myself that the more I learned to identify shame in myself that like you just said, the more quickly I was actually able to apologize when I needed to. And moreover, I even learned that I was able to start seeking out critique. If I knew somebody who's really good in a field.
Or good at some particular skill that I want to grow in all of the sudden now it had this capacity that I didn't have when I was younger to say, tell me what I'm doing well here and tell me what I could do better on and help me figure out how to do better on this. And that became easy rather than a thing of any sort of critique became the sort of devastating thing about myself.
Kristin
Right. And so that's the difference between self-esteem and self-compassion right there. Right? So self-esteem, if you think it's going to be eco blow. The admitting that you aren't perfect or someone's better than you at something is going to harm your self-esteem. You aren't going to do it. With self-compassion it's just like, oh, I just want myself to be well, as well as possible and to, you know, grow and heal, then it's all good. Right? You don't take it so personally. It actually is motivation to try to improve.
Lee
Any other particular ways that stand out in your own life experience of ways you've seen this, help you grow as a human being?
Or key moments in your story?
Kristin
Uh, yeah, absolutely. Well, it's funny. Um, my last book, I talk a lot about anger, right? Um, I've always kind of struggled with anger the way I'm wired is I kind of tend to be a slightly reactive person. I like to joke. I thank goodness. I'm a self-compassion teacher, not a mindfulness teacher because, you know, I, it's just whatever, the way I'm wired.
And for years and years, you know, after with my self-compassion practice, I was able to accept my anger. And again, I'm really good at apologizing. I didn't judge myself. I used to judge myself for it, but I moved out of that. I think with time the practice started really getting more mature and then I realized that actually the energy that was driving my anger was the same energy that's actually driven me to achieve so much in my life, right? That's kind of that fear self-compassion I talked about, I have a lot of fierceness, but that's just part of my nature of a lot of this fierce energy kind of go get her energy. Also really stand up to, injustice or if I think someone's crossing my boundaries, I really stand up.
And so yes, we want to have balance and of course it's not good to like yell at people or make it personal. But through the self-compassion I actually started realizing that this is a positive, something that needs to be harnessed, especially when it's harmless for good. When the anger is harnessed for alleviating suffering, that is actually a form of, self-compassion.
And so I think that's one place this path has led me starting to things that I used to think as a negative. I can actually now see the positive of aspects of it.
Lee
Yeah, that's remarkable because that reminds me, we've got, uh, on our podcast, an interview with Vince Gill here in Nashville and he has a legendary temper. And I was asking him about his temper and about his anger. And he said that, he had gone golfing one day with his wife, Amy Grant and this new guy that he'd met or was becoming friends with as I recollect the story who was, a psychologist.
And he lost his temper playing golf. And so he, started talking about it and he said for the first time ever this psychologist or counselor said, well, you know that, that anger doesn't surprise me. So when I look at the things you've done and you've accomplished, you've got to have some energy behind that that's driven you to do that kind of stuff. And he said, it's just that energy coming out sideways with the anger. And he said, once I realized that it helped him completely reframe thatand then get a better way of handling and navigating that, that anger.
Kristin
And in my book I refer to it as yin and yang, which I kind of, it's like less judgmental yin and yang. The yang energy is more of that fierce energy and yin is more of the soft energy. And if you're too yin, without enough yang, you're going to be complacent. But if you're too yang without enough yin, you're going to be aggressive.
So it's also about trying to find the balance. Again, another reason I wrote this book for women in particular is because men and women are imbalanced in different ways. So the problem with men, the way they're socialized is that they aren't allowed to be tender, right? They're cut off from that more yin and gentle side, which is actually inhibits our ability to understand their emotions.
And it inhibits the ability to have good social relationships. It's a problem that they aren't allowed to be tender, but then women aren't allowed to be fierce, right? You know, people don't like fierce women, they have different types of names for fierce women, and that has women being uncomfortable with their anger it can also disempower them.
Right? And so from my point of view, everyone needs to balance and integrate yin and yang. And that's going to come out differently by gender, whoever you are. It's not going to look the same for any one person, but to be authentic, we need to be able to access both. And so from my point of view, it's a problem.
If, gender role socialization or culture or whatever, any outside force, doesn't allow us to be fully authentic and understand all sides of ourself, then that's going to lead to, psychological problems.
Lee
What does it look like you think then in either social settings, workplace settings, friendship, relationships between men and women in which those gender stereotypes can be undercut and healthier relating to those realities can occur in both men and women in those relationships or those settings?
Kristin
Right. So, what the research shows for instance, for women. So unfortunately you wonder why there's still a glass ceiling. People dislike really competent, powerful women, even though they need to be competent and powerful to get to leadership positions. People assume that a competent, powerful woman isn't nurturing.
And people like nurturing women. What do we show shows though, as long as you display both sides, as long as you also say, oh, how are your kids? Or like, show something, kind of more yin, more soft, more tender, then people don't dislike strong, powerful women.
And so with men, you know, they don't dislike men, for being tender necessarily, but it certainly doesn't hurt them if they also display that side. So, I think really the way, to work with it is just to realize that we all have these two sides of ourselves and to actually consciously ask, okay, am I tapping into both sides, right? Am I being, too soft? Am I being too complacent, right? Am I worrying too much about how people like me, for instance. Then maybe I need to draw my boundaries a little firmer. Maybe I need to speak up a little more, right? Alternatively, for instance, sometimes when I'm angry, I forget my yin side and I've got to like, oh, okay.That's right. Say something that shows you care about that person. You know, I've got to remind myself. So it really is just a matter of balance. And here's the thing we're going to get it wrong. That's also where self-compassion gets in. We're going to get it wrong. We're going to fall off and get off balance, but then by being self-compassionate and rebalances us, and then we can just try again. One of my favorite quotes is, the goal of practice is simply to be a compassionate mess, right? So in other words, we're going to be a mess.
We're going to get it wrong. You know, we're going to make mistakes. But if our goal is to be compassionate with that mess, then in a way we've achieved, right? We we've achieved our goal. then not only we achieved our goal, the more compassionate we are, the more able we are to actually achieve our goals.
Lee
We've been talking to professor Kristin Neff, Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, pioneer in the field of self-compassion research. You can get her newest bookFierce Self-Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power, and Thrive, or her earlier book:Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself. Thank you so much Professor Neff, it has been a delight to talk to you today.
Kristin
It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Lee Camp
You've been listening to Tokens: public theology, human flourishing, the good life, and our interview with professor and author Kristin Neff.
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to check out our season 3 episode on the neuroscience of shame, vulnerability, and community featuring psychiatrist Curt Thompson.
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Thanks for listening, and peace be unto thee.
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