Lee
[00:00:00] I am Lee C. Camp, and this is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
Martin
I had this intention that I needed to start living an honest life.
Lee
That's Martin Sheen, world-renowned actor, perhaps best known for his role as President Jed Bartlet on the television series, The West Wing. But in our conversation, fame took a backseat so we could talk about his social activism as well as his journey back to the faith of his youth.
Martin
And so, I marched over there on May Day, 1981, and I walked out into the empty church. I wept with a measure of joy that I had never experienced before, and I was so happy to be home. I'd finally gotten back home.
Lee
All this and much more, coming right up.[00:01:00]
I'm Lee C. Camp. This is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
As I've mentioned before on the show, I've been on sabbatical this last semester from my day job as a professor, so I've used that time to travel and tape interviews with some folks with whom I've long wanted to sit and talk.
It's been a true delight. On a recent trip to California, I interviewed several peace activists. Reverend James Lawson, an architect of non-violent strategy of the American Civil Rights Movement and close friend of Dr. King. Also sat down with Father John Dear, who's been arrested some 80 times protesting nuclear weapons and war making.
And I also negotiated a sit down with another famed human being, who, you may or may not know, also happens to be an ardent peace activist, and that is...the president of the United States. Well, kind of. I sat down with a man who played the president of the [00:02:00] United States, Jed Bartlet, on the TV show, The West Wing.
Martin
When I agreed to do the character, I only asked for two things - that he be Catholic and that he have a Notre Dame degree.
[Both laugh heartily]
Lee
That's Martin Sheen. And of course, my being a Notre Dame alum, I already liked him. In addition to his role as President Bartlet, he's also well known for numerous other roles, such as those in Apocalypse Now, The Departed, and the TV show Grace and Frankie. But offscreen, he's been a devoted activist. He's actually been arrested with the previously mentioned James Lawson and John Dear, sharing a jail cell with them, in fact.
And you've been arrested, what, 60-something times in your social activism work?
Martin
I, I started, I only started keeping count because of my age.
Lee
So today we leave the movies and TV behind, mostly, and talk with Martin Sheen in his home in Malibu about his faith and his life of activism. [00:03:00]
So born in Ohio, children of immigrants?
Martin
Yeah. Yeah. Both my parents were immigrants. My father was from Spain and my mother from Ireland. You know my real name?
Lee
Yes. Would, would you say it, say it for us?
Martin
Ramon Gerardo Estevez. [Laughs]
Lee
Martin
My father was a Gallego from Galicia, and so they had the very strong 'th' sound.
Lee
Martin
"Gracias." "Pardonada." So.
Lee
I'm, I'm from Alabama. I can hardly do foreign, foreign accents.
[Both laugh]
So, so growing up, I guess as far as early childhood activism experience-- I've, I've read a story about you as a caddy, that may be the origins of your social activism.
[Both laugh]
Martin
Uh, that-- I, I was, I was working for, uh, Senator Brown in Ohio some time ago, and I told him that story, and that's his favorite story. [Lee laughs] He always tells people, "Did you know that Martin was a union organizer at the age of 14?"
Lee
Yeah, will [00:04:00] you, will you tell that story for us?
Martin
Well, uh, I was working at a, a very exclusive private club in Dayton, and they were a, a bunch of airheads basically.
I mean, they were racist, and then anti-Semite, and you know, they worshiped a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jesus, [Lee laughs] who was probably born somewhere in Indiana. Who knows?
So I, I was caddying there for about five years at the time, and that kind of elitism, you don't wanna know the name of the servants. So it was just 'caddy.' 'Caddy' this and 'caddy' that.
And we were judged on our etiquette and our skills, of course. And, and we would placate these idiots. We would 'club' them. Do, do you know what that term means?
Lee
Martin
It doesn't mean to hit 'em over the head. [Lee laughs] I almost wish we could have done that with the golf club. But 'club' them means we would advise them--
Lee
Martin
--what club to use in the circumstance. 'Cause we knew the golf course.
Lee
Martin
You know, from the approach, to the pins, and what club to use, and blah blah blah. It's endless. And [00:05:00] so, we were judged on those kind of skills. But the fundamental understanding was, you are a servant and don't get too personal with these people.
But I, I decided that-- you know, we were, the boys were always complaining about how badly they were treated, how little money they made for how much work they did, you know? And mind you, we would-- most golf courses are not flat. If you're carrying doubles, at least two bags, you're serving two guys at the same time, and you're walking up some of those hills - you're walking four miles with, like, in some cases 80 pounds on your back. And at that time, the most you could make was $4 and 25 cents.
If you got the 75 cent tip with a fin - we called it a fin, it's a fiber - then you were lucky. And sometimes at the end of the day, you'd come in and they'd go in the clubhouse and start playing cards and getting drunk, and you'd wait out there until after dark before they realized, you know, they'd be coming out to go home and you're sitting there waiting for them to pay you.
That was normal. And they'd say, 'Oh, excuse us, sorry [00:06:00] about that. Oh hey, yeah, sorry.' And they'd dig in their pockets for something, you know, for enough to pay you. But, so we decided to end that. We wanted to be treated as human beings, and we wanted to be paid for our labor. So I called the lads out and said, 'you know, if we're gonna get their attention, we have to strike.'
And so, yeah, so we walked out. And the caddy master came and said, 'excuse you, what's going on?' I said, 'well, we're not working today. I told you we, we have grievances here. We want to do--' 'Oh man, come on. Lads, you know, don't listen to him, you know--' And it went on and on, and it went on for about four or five days, I remember.
[Lee laughs]
And it got down to where gradually they, they destroyed our ranks and it got down to two guys - my brother Alfonso and I.
And so it ended with, uh, Al finally saying, 'you know, brother, I think, uh, it's a lost cause, but you know, I'm proud of you. [Lee laughs] If you wanna go, I'll support you guys.'
Lee
You learned early about the machination to power.
Martin
Lee
Martin
So we caved in, I came back. And, and they asked me to come back actually, because I was a very good [00:07:00] caddy. All of us were. And they were losing some really skilled labor, so--
Lee
Martin
So I swallowed my pride and I went back. But those, that lesson was the, uh, first one that made a profound change.
Lee
Martin
Lee
Martin
Lee
You've talked publicly about kind of wandering away, or letting go of, or not taking seriously - I'm not sure the language there - your faith for some time.
Martin
Lee
Martin
Lee
Martin
Ego, here you go.
[Both laugh]
Lee
Do I remember correctly that it was about the time you were filming the Gandhi film in India, that that was a, kind of a important time of you beginning to come back to your faith, or what were some of the key elements?
Martin
Well, I-- that was the culmination of a couple of years. That was in '81. But in '77 I was in the Philippines finishing up the last couple of months of Apocalypse [00:08:00] and I got, I found myself alone one night and I thought I was having a heart attack. I got very, very sick and, and I, I guess I nearly died.
Lee
Numerous news outlets report that Martin did in fact have a heart attack amidst the notoriously tumultuous filming of Francis Ford Coppola's Apocalypse Now. He was airlifted in a chopper to Manila for treatment. With his wife Janet by his side, he spent a month recovering before returning to the set, as, in his words, a changed man.
Martin
It was a wake up call, you know. That I realized that, uh, I needed to get, I needed to get balanced more. I was so egocentric and so career oriented. Y'know, I was 36, 37 at the time. It was the first big job of my life, and I knew that I, I was going to be-- if I survived, I was going to be more in demand, that I could make a living doing this thing.
[00:09:00] And so I, I ought not, uh, blow this opportunity. But at the same time, I wasn't, I, I was so splined, I was so scattered, you know? And I needed to find a way to bring all the pieces back together. That's the best way I can explain it. And because I was so fragmentated [sic] - I was this person, I was this way with this person, and that way with this person, and then with myself, I was so torn and divided - it was, I was ineffective doing anything with family or career or anything.
Lee
Martin
And I was not leading, basically, a very honest life - really a very dishonest life, frankly. And Janet on the other hand, and we married, uh, almost 20 years by then, was just always a straight, honest person, and I was, for me, honesty was a sometimes thing, you know?
Lee
Martin
She, she couldn't count on me, but I could always count on her. And I decided, after that wake up call, I had to find a way to get, get to a level of understanding or freedom or honesty, whatever [00:10:00] you want to call-- I don't think you can separate them. And so it really started to get clear when I, I went, I went to India with Emilio in, in, uh, January of '81 to do a part on Gandhi, and I, I had been in some third world countries, like, you know, like the Philippines and Mexico and a few others that I saw horrible poverty, but I'd never seen institutionalized poverty like that.
I mean, it was just so accepted. And there was so mu-- it was horrible. I mean, it was poverty on top of poverty. It was like there, there was no end to it. It was generational, and it, and it foreclosed the future.
I was in a crowd, at one point-- they estimate about a million people in the scene, the opening scene of Gandhi's funeral.
Lee
Martin
And to just be a part of that enormous size of humanity. [00:11:00] And I thought, you will never see these people again, ever. And of course you don't, you know. And that's, becomes pretty much the course every day in the third world - you're never gonna see them again. They can't come where you live and, and you can leave anytime 'cause you got an, an old USA passport.
And that made a profound imprint on me. And I decided that I really needed to, to make an adjustment in my life.
At any rate, I came home from India with a vacuum of what-- the next thing I would do. And so, I'd gotten an offer to go to Paris and do this film. And so I started working on this little film, and I, I remember Sam Neal was in it.
I was so impressed with his character. He was living at a hotel called the Hotel Lennox, and he said, 'you ought to come over there and see if you can get a room'. And so I came over to this place. It was in the Left Bank, and, and he took me up and he showed me this [00:12:00] magnificent-- he had kind of a two-story room on the top of the hotel, this little tiny hotel on the Left Bank.
And I said, 'wow, I'd like to go.' And I went down and the desk said, 'no, we don't have any, uh, rooms left.' And I-- and he said, 'you can have mine.' I said, 'oh, no, no.' He said, 'I insist.' And he did! He moved out and he insisted I moved in and I did. And it became, like, for me, a monastery.
Lee
Martin
And...I just loved this room. And it was like-- there was a skylight and I, and I'd wake up in the mornings, I'd order a cappuccino and a croissant. They'd bring the paper and I'd read and on the terrace, and it was just, ah.... And I had all these books I had to read.
And then one day I was walking down the Rue Jacob, and I see a guy on the other side of the street and he sees me, and we recognize each other instantly. And I said, I said, 'Terry, is that you?'
And he said, 'Martin, is that you?' I said-- he's from Texas, you know, Oklahoma-- I said, 'yeah.'
'Well, what are you doing here?' I said, 'well, I'm doing a little filming.' I said, 'what are you doing here?' And he said, 'well, you know, I'm, I'm [00:13:00] just, you're just kind of, you know, reevaluating my life. And I've been remarried and I'm living here and I'm writing script all, it's a--'
And we started talking and we talked for like the next three months, almost every day.
Lee
And this is Terrence Malick.
Martin
Lee
Martin
He became, for lack of a better phrase, and I know he wouldn't approve of, but he became like a spiritual advisor. He's a very, very deeply spiritual man and... Rhodes scholar, of course. He spoke four languages. And, and had this thirst for this spirituality that he lived, you know. He, he'd give me books to read all the time. Endlessly. And we'd discuss the books after I read them.
Lee
Martin
And the film that I was doing, I can't even remember the name, God forgive me, and I hope that Sam Neill will forgive me...
[Lee laughs]
But, uh, it was, became, I, it was an annoyance I had to go to work every day, every now and then, do a few days on the film. Cause I, I was so engaged in this revelatory reawakening of our friendship and the effect he was, it was having on me. And, and the last book [00:14:00] he gave me was The Brothers Karmazov.
Lee
Martin
And I started reading it and I could not stop reading it.
Lee
Martin
And you know, it's a pretty thick book, and I read it thoroughly in, uh, five or six days.
Lee
Martin
And by the end of it, uh, coincidentally I had a day off and I woke up the morning after I finished reading The Brothers Karamazov and I said, well, I guess this is the day.
And I walked from the Lennox Hotel on the Left Bank, across the river, and all the way over to the Right Bank, to this church called St. Joseph on the Avenue Hoche, which is not far from the Arc de Triomphe and the Right Bank. And-- because I used to go there occasionally. It was an English-speaking church. It was the only one in Paris. And it was, uh, serviced by these redemptionist [sic] fathers from Ireland.
Lee
Martin
So it was in English. And I had this intention that I needed to get back to my foundation. I needed to, to start [00:15:00] living an honest life, 'cause now I understood how important it was. 'Cause to lead a dishonest life is the death of the soul, basically. You can't serve two masters, you can't serve the flesh and your spirit. You have to find a way to unite the will of the spirit to the work of the flesh in order to lead an honest life.
And so I realized how important it was. And for me, I wanted the return to the Catholic Church, which had changed so drastically from the time I left it, you know, with the Vatican too.
Lee
Martin
And I wanted to join the church that served human rights, uh, social justice, and peace. And the church of Mother Teresa and Dan Berrigan and Pope, uh, John XXIII who started the whole thing.
And so I marched over there on May Day, 1981. And I found that church and I banged on the door. It was around noon o'clock. And I banged on the door. And I banged again on the door. No answer, no answer, no answer. Finally, last ditch effort...rouse [00:16:00] somebody there, and I hammered on the door like, uh, Martin Luther must have done back in the day, [Lee laughs] and, and no answer.
And so I walked down the steps, and by the time I got to the bottom of the steps, I heard the door fly open and I look up and there's that guy. [Lee laughs] That redemptionist [sic] priest. And he had a napkin, and it, and he had little food on his chin, and it was like, I knew I'd interrupted his lunch.
He said, 'What is it? What's going on?' I said, uh, 'Oh, oh, Father, I, I'm sorry to bother you. I haven't been to confession in many years and I'd like to go to confession.' And he looked at me, and something behind his eyes said, you know, this is what I do for a living, you came to the right place, not to worry.
And he said, uh, he said, 'Can you come tomorrow? It's, uh, Saturday at noon o'clock, and, uh, and we'll do that.' And I said, 'I'd be delighted.' And he said, 'Don't be late. I have a wedding at one, one o'clock.' I said, 'I won't.' And that was it.
I came back the next day at the appointed hour and I was the only one in the church. It was stone empty and I went in the box. He came out and I went in the box and I [00:17:00] went to confession and he gave me-- and it's been a long time, and he gave me a penance. You know what confession is, right?
Lee
Martin
He gave me a penance and he said, now I want you to say one Our Father. And I said, 'One Our Father?' And he said, 'Yes.' He said, 'You haven't been gone that long that you've forgotten the Our Father.'
And I said, 'No, no, I remember. And I'm just a little smart--' 'Yeah, just say that and, and now make a good Act of Contrition.' And I did. And he left the box, and, and I walked out into the empty church.
I burst into tears. I wept with a measure of joy that I had never experienced before. And it still, it still moves me to talk about it, to remember it. I wept with such joy and such relief, and I was so happy to be home.
Lee
Martin
I'd finally gotten back home.
And I [00:18:00] remember sitting in the pew and the tears were flooding my face and the snot was pouring out of my nose.
And I, I went looking in my pocket for something to wipe all this away. And there was nothing. And there-- and I looked down on the floor and there was a, somebody had dropped a Kleenex there, and I grabbed it and soaked my face in it. It was all I had. It was the happiest day of my life.
Lee
Martin
Because I'd returned to my true self.
Lee
Martin
And I began to... Lee, I began to become myself, basically.
And I, I resolved to serve, you know, and that was it. And I, I don't know what else to say. I, that was 41 years ago.
Lee
Martin
It's been the most difficult decision and the hardest time imaginable, but equally the happiest.[00:19:00]
Lee
You're listening to No Small Endeavor and our conversation with Martin Sheen.
I love hearing from you. Tell us what you're reading, who you're paying attention to, or send us feedback about today's episode. I recently heard from a listener who wrote, and I quote, "I love the show and have been listening for several years. Only recently, when a guest called you Lee, did I realize your first name is not Lacey. Please give a moment's pause between Lee C. Camp."
So, for the record, I am Lee. C. Camp. There's actually a comedian named Lee Camp, hence my use of my middle initial C., which, if you're interested, stands for Compton. Lee Compton Camp.
And though my students find me quite entertaining, I'll leave the comedy to the professionals. As always, you can reach me at [00:20:00] lee@nosmallendeavor.Com.
You can get show notes for this episode in your podcast app or wherever you listen. These notes include links to resources mentioned in this episode and a PDF of my complete interview notes, including material not found in this episode, as well as a transcript. I think we might also have some photos there, of my time with Martin Sheen, on the show notes.
And, by the way, we're releasing an unabridged version of this interview with Mr. Sheen, which you can also get only on our podcast.
So out of that then, you, you have a strong heritage in the Catholic traditions.
Martin
Lee
Catholic social teaching, then--
Martin
Lee
--that makes sense of your, the way your activism is grounded, is inseparable from your faith going forward, right.
Martin
Lee
Um, and you've been arrested, what, 60 something times in yours social activism work?
Martin
I, [00:21:00] I started, I only started keeping count because of my age. [Lee laughs] I thought, I got a lot of work to do here. But they, but, but I couldn't really separate any of the issues from-- whether it was homelessness or, uh, nuclearism, which was the, you know, the state religion basically. You know, we were arming because we didn't trust God and we were not non-violent. We were extremely armed and dangerous, and nuclearism had to be confronted. And so I got involved in the anti-nuke movement through the, the Berrigans, basically.
Lee
Yeah.
And you were very close friends to, with Dan Berrigan?
Martin
Lee
Martin
Yeah, yeah, very much so.
Lee
For those who don't know much about Dan and Phil Berrigan, would you just very briefly give kind of a snapshot of some of their work?
Martin
Well, they were two Catholic priests. Dan Berrigan was a Jesuit, and his brother Phil was a Josephite. Phil was a World War II combat veteran.
Lee
Martin
Lee
Martin
Yeah. He came home from the service and, and, and followed his vocation, was ordained, and he started [00:22:00] serving in the South. The Josephites are basically in service to, uh, Black Americans. That's their primary mission. And then Dan was a Jesuit and was a scholar and a poet and, and a very revered Jesuit.
And they became friends with the birth of pacifism in the United States, really, in the modern era, from a monk in Kentucky, who was, uh, Thomas Merton. And, uh, they came together on it and it culminated with the war in, uh, Vietnam. And they started early protests, burning of draft cards and so forth. They, the first confrontation they had with the draft board--
Lee
Martin
Catonsville. They were the Catonsville Nine.
And, um, they went to prison and Dan almost died in prison. And they were the great source of inspiration to a lot of us in the movement. And I remember something Dan said while he [00:23:00] was awaiting, after he was captured and was on his way to prison, they had kind of a goodbye gathering for his friends and family and all.
And Dan said, uh, 'You know, the only way we're gonna end this war is if we fill the prisons.'
'That's the only way that the government is gonna realize that this is gonna end, we're gonna end it, we're just not gonna participate. And if it means, uh, that we have to protest and protest so that they put us in, let's fill the prisons in-- instead of the, uh, graveyards of, uh, Southeast Asia.'
Lee
Martin
And someone in the audience said, 'Well, that's all well and good, Father Berrigan, for you to, uh, advocate our all going to prison, but we have children. What about our children? What's gonna happen to our children if we go to jail?' And Dan said, 'What's gonna happen to them if you don't?'
Lee
Martin
That's, that's where the truth lies, right?
Lee
Martin
And so Dan and Phil had this peace and justice advocacy, which crossed all the lines in the church and all areas of the culture really, but specifically in the peace and justice movement within the Catholic Church in Pax Christi. And some of the others, very specific Catholic attention to peacemaking in the Cold-- during the Cold War and specifically during the Vietnam War, which is critical.
So I met, I, I, you know, Dan-- and they had both been an inspiration to me, but, uh, I hadn't met either until, uh, I came back to the church.
Lee
Martin
And I was offered, in 1981, shortly - that summer after I'd converted, reconverted, in Paris - that summer, I was invited to come to New York to do a documentary with, uh, a very radical filmmaker named Emilio [sic] de Antonio.
He was making a film based on another action that the Berrigan brothers had [00:25:00] led in the King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, where they, they barged into a general electric plant there that builds and assembles the MX 12 missiles, and they bang on the nose cones of these missiles with hammers and poured their blood on them.
They were fulfilling the prophecy of 'they shall beat their swords into plowshares' and so forth. And so they called themselves The Plowshares. And Emile de Antonio got the trial record. They were all convicted, uh, but they were gonna appeal, and he wanted to do a documentary, but he wanted the participants, the defendants to play themselves, and he asked me to play the judge. Judge Kaufman. Well, I said, I would love to do that. So, I mean, you, you had the sense that, you know, when you're gonna meet Dan Berrigan, after all you've heard about him, he's gotta be at least 8 feet tall, right?
Lee
Martin
But here was this very slight, very handsome, thin, kind of frail guy with this great energy and this magnificent [00:26:00] sense of humor. And he was so funny.
There was a story-- I didn't see it, but I heard it. But he was speaking at a very, uh, conservative Catholic church and he got up in the pulpit to speak. And there was an American flag on his right and the papal flag on his left, and he said, he looked at both of them and he said to the crowd, 'well, now I have a sense how Jesus felt being crucified between two thieves.'
[Both laugh heartily]
Yeah, the Vatican didn't hold a lot of promise for Dan.
Lee
John Dear, uh, describes Dan Berrigan the same way, with a sort of joyful spirit, wonderful sense of humor. You know, you strike me as a joyous--
Martin
Lee
Martin
That's good. I'm still a-- [Laughs]
Lee
You impress me as a joyous human being. And so I, I think a lot of times when people will think about social justice activists, [00:27:00] one of the stereotypes is sort of, kind of sharp edge, but, but you seem to have this sort of sweetness about you [Martin laughs] and Dan sounds like he has a sweetness about him.
Like, how, how do you see the sort of social activism that requires you to take this kind of strong stance vis-a-vis the powers of the world, and the sort of joy that you carry around.
Martin
You know, from from the time I came back to the church, I, I felt a rejuvenation in my life of... when I started. As a child, I had a sense of knowingness. And I can't really describe it any more--
Lee
Martin
A knowingness. There's a knowingness about, uh, the mystery. The, the, the-- children have a sense of mystery and it, and it's all deeply personal... that, that, that, that seemed to be the equalizer, that there was something mysterious. And so you would see it in others.
You'd say, what, what is that with that guy? What or [00:28:00] what is that with that lady, or that girl or that person, or, why are they this and that, you know? It was like the, the-- people attracted you more by what they were doing than what they were saying.
Lee
Martin
And I think that that was the, the thing that attracted me so much to, to Catholicism was this human spirituality, this deep sense of what it meant to be human.
And it's only one word for it. And that's compassion. You saw it in these people that were teaching us and these people that were parenting us. They were people who were... who, who understood the mystery of what it meant to be human.
Lee
Martin
And, and that's that magic word - compassionate, I call it. And when I got to New York and I'm, you know, suddenly started to get, you know, recognized and started making a living for this thing I love to do.
So I thought, 'Oh, that's it. I, I'm, I'm the mystery,' you know, 'I'm what it's all about here. Okay, fine.' And then when I ended up in the toilet, you know, crawling around on the, on the floor of the jungle in the [00:29:00] Philippines trying to find my way to the r-- the, the road, I realized, you know, that that's what it, it leads to.
Lee
Martin
You know? And so I knew that I-- I knew that I had had lost the compassion for myself.
Lee
Martin
Lee
Martin
And so it was a natural progression to return to the church because I never really left it in that sense. You know how people always say, well, I'm looking for God. No, no, no, [laughs] God, God already found you.
It's like, [both laugh] it's right there, you know? It's right there. And it's like, the older I get, the more dependent I become on accepting my frailties and my mortality...my humanity.
Lee
Martin
You know, the more I, I appreciate that, that I came to understand what it meant to love myself. It was the recognition that I was loved.
Lee
Martin
And that's what I give thanks and praise for...every day. When I remember. [00:30:00]
[Both laugh]
Lee
You're listening to No Small Endeavor, and our episode with Martin Sheen.
We're gonna take a short break, but coming right up, Martin shares his story of sharing a jail cell with peace activists John Dear and James Lawson, and what it was like to smoke a cigarette and yell at God, in both English and Latin, mind you, in the National Cathedral as President Jed Bartlet on the TV series, The West Wing.
You end up in jail one day with Jim Lawson?
Martin
Lee
Would you tell us that story?
Martin
I'm o-- only reluctant because it sounds like I'm bragging... and I am.
Lee
Martin
I promise you.
John and I--
Lee
I'm inviting you. I'm inviting you.
Martin
Lee
Martin
--were arrested. John Dear and I were arrested. We had belonged to a coalition of laity and clergy concerned here in Los Angeles, [00:31:00] against the war in, uh, El Salvador in Central America.
And when the Jesuits were murdered, uh, our protests became, became very intense, and we began to meet, and then we formed a group called the Wednesday Morning Coalition of all of religious and laity concerned. Mostly, uh, Catholic, but not re-- confined to Catholic. There were a lot of ministers and uh, uh, of all religions ,and rabbis who joined us.
And we would assemble downtown in LA at La Placita, the little church there. And we would march to the federal courthouse and we would shut it down, every Wednesday morning. They'd see us coming, then-- we were totally non-violent, but we would, you know, it was a serious intent. But we, we came with great compassion ,and not without humor, and we would chain ourselves so they couldn't get in the doors.
We'd get there before anybody else, you know, like seven o'clock in the morning. And so, you know, by the time they were ready to open, they couldn't get the door. So they would arrest us. And, and we, and, and went on for, you know-- I remember I, I had, I, I went to [00:32:00] court finally, for 13 arrests, you know, that I had to account for, and I couldn't remember having, having had that many. [Lee laughs]
But at any rate, on one of them, we ended up in the basement of that building, uh, which was a holding cell for undocumented. And it was a huge room. And, uh, they had us all in there, handcuffed and seated on the floor. We were required to seat on the floor. And John and I were, were sitting next to each other and-- on the floor, and, uh, our hands behind our backs handcuffed.
And, uh, the door would open every now and then-- it was a huge room, and more people would be, uh, brought in and, and joined us. And by and by, the, the whole room, uh, rectangular room was filled with all the protestors [laughs] and, uh, at one point John said, 'Hey, don't look now, but you see that guy over there?'
I said, 'Who? Who? Who's that?' He said, 'The guy on the other side, I think that's James Lawson.' I said, 'Who?' He said, 'Reverend James Lawson.' And he told me the story of [00:33:00] how Reverend Lawson, uh, led the pro-- protest in Memphis for the garbage strikers. And he encouraged Reverend King to come to Memphis. And, uh, they were very, very close friends and that was their relationship, you know, and that he was the hero of, uh, Memphis and one of the great heroes of the non-violent movement.
And I said, 'Oh my God, that's him?' Then I remembered seeing footage of him--
Lee
Martin
--during the, uh, Civil Rights protests and so forth, uh, and how close he was to Reverend King. And there, there he was. Right across from us. And so, by-- by and by, Reverend, uh, Lawson inched his way up the wall with his hands behind his back, and he was kind of stretching there and trying to, you know, uh, get more comfortable.
And the guard came in and said, 'You! You get down, you know, uh, uh, on, on the floor. Uh, you're, you're not, you're not allowed to stand up now. Get down on the floor.'
And he said, 'I'm sorry?'
And he said, 'I'm talking to you, mister. [00:34:00] You get your ass on the floor. And the quicker the better.'
And he said, 'Please, listen to me. I'm, I'm having a great deal of pain, and my shoulders and my hands are numb and I can't sit on the floor anymore. So respectfully, I'm gonna stand.'
He said, 'Mister, I'm telling you for the last time, you better get your ass on the floor. And do it now.'
'Again, I have to tell you, seriously, I'm in a lot of pain. Please forgive me. I don't mean to disobey your rules here, but I cannot.'
And, and there was a silence, and then there was a, a palpable concern about what was the next move? Everybody-- there was dead silence. You could hear people breathing, but nobody was talking. And the Reverend Lawson was leaning on the wall.
He had his head back up and his eyes were closed and I thought, oh my God. That is the bravest thing I've ever seen in my life.
And the guy came back in and he had some other officers with him and he said, 'There he is.' And he said, 'Mister, I'm telling you [00:35:00] for the last time, you better get your ass back on the floor. We're not fooling around.'
And he said, 'Again, I have to tell you, I'm in a great deal of pain and I'd appreciate if you'd let me stand.'
They started coming at him. And I inched up the wall.
And they said, 'What do you think you're doing, mister? You better get your ass back down.'
And I said the bravest thing I ever said in my life. I said, 'I'm standing with the preacher.'
And the whole room got up. And everybody said, 'I'm standing with the preacher.'
And the guards got flabbergasted and angry and started yelling, and left. And slammed the door.
So [00:36:00] that was my introduction to him. And, uh, my gratitude to him is enormous. I saw the kind of courage he had and I thought, my God, he was in the middle of Memphis and his dear friend was shot down, Reverend King, and he was with those workers saying, 'I am a man.' and he was there years before.
Lee
Yeah, when I saw him, when I saw him last Sunday, he, he lit up when I told him I was gonna get to see you. [Martin laughs]
So let me, let me, let me shift to another thing I want to, to raise with you. And I, and I think it's related to what we've been discussing, but I wanna go to The West Wing just a second.
Martin
Lee
I think that my favorite scene, and I'm not just flattering you, but, but it is, it's my favorite scene from television is the scene you do, President Bartlet does in The West Wing in the National Cathedral.
Martin
Lee
And, um, it seems to me that that scene [00:37:00] encapsulates what people of faith at some point so often come to, not in spite of their faith, but because of their faith, when they're so frustrated at the brokenness of the world.
Martin
Lee
Well, what did that, what-- you know, for those who haven't seen it, we'll, we'll note a, a link to it in the show notes so people can go watch it. And I watched it again last night and I, and I, I must say, I must say that I kind of flinched several times--
Martin
Lee
--watching it, because it's so... I mean, you're, the president is, you know, he's so angry.
Martin
Lee
Martin
Lee
And, because of his grief. And um, and then lights a cigarette and drops it on the floor and stomps it out in the middle of the National Cathedral.
Martin
Lee
But what does that, what does that kind of scene mean, mean for you as a human being? Or, or did it mean much to you when you did that scene?
Martin
It did. Yeah. It, uh, well, when I first came back to the church, it was a priest here, God rest him, uh, uh, Father Bud Kieser, who was a Paulist father, and their mission is to, to reach the non-Catholic world. And so [00:38:00] he was, had a, a mission here in Los Angeles, St. Paul's Church, and he founded a, a little film company and they produced a, a series called, uh, Insight.
And they, it was this little half hour morality plays, so forth, uh, that he, he had Sunday morning time, you know, they'd give him. And so, uh, I became very close to him and he became a great inspiration.
I remember when I came back to the church, I went to see him and I told him, 'I'm back.' And he said, 'This is just the honeymoon. You don't know what you're in for.' [Both laugh]
And he was right. [Laughs]
Um, but he... he told me once that he would do that every so often, that he would get so frustrated with what he was trying to do with his life, and they just didn't seem to be getting anywhere, and God was not helping out.
Lee
Martin
Thank you very much. And so he would lock up the church.
Lee
Martin
Literally. And have it out, with God.
Lee
Martin
How could you do this to me? I mean, he's like, Job, you know?
Or like [00:39:00] Tevye, you know, and Tevye would say, 'How could you do this to me? On the other hand...' you know? [Both laugh]
It's that great thing where, you know, uh, we have the, uh, the relationship that God becomes human, which transcends everything. I mean, that-- it's the greatest change in the universe is that God becomes human, you know?
And so Bud Kieser, you know, talked to God like a human being. 'I'm mad at you today and, and I got good reason. And you're gonna hear every one of them. And so you better listen.'
And he would have it out. And I thought, wow, that's therapeutic, and it's theological, and it's Job, you know?
And so I, I thought of that. And so when I got the script, I thought, oh my God, this is what this guy is doing. He's gonna have it out with--
Lee
Martin
--with, with God. And the only difference was he, uh, Aaron Sorkin chose to have me do half of it in Latin. Well, I, I'd been an altar boy when I was young, and so I knew how to kind of do the Latin, but I wasn't quite sure of it 'cause there's a lot of differences in Latin if you're, if you're [00:40:00] German or Italian, this is a big difference in the Latin pronunciation.
So I went to our parish priest here, Monsignor Sheridan, whom I told you has passed away now, but, he was an Irish priest and a scholar. And so I, I, I learned the scene with him, the Latin portions. He told me how it would be done in the West, and so I learned it. And uh, when I got to Washington, we shot at, at, at, in, in the cathedral, you know.
Lee
Martin
And there was a lot of objection to it. Not only because I was profane, but the cigarette-- whoahh. And the members of the hierarchy in the church were there and they were not happy when we were doing that scene.
And at one point during the break, I remember-- when we were doing coverage, I did the master and then we were doing coverage and I went back to sit down, like in the middle, and some of them were not looking very happy and I said, 'Uh, you have some concerns about this.' And, 'Oh we do, but you know, we were told to let you film here and that's fine. We have no thing over--'
And I just, I couldn't believe, when I looked up, kind of, what, what do I say about this? And if you look where I was standing, there was a stained glass of Job.
Lee
Martin
And I said, 'Well, if you look up there, you know, that's what I'm relating this to. It's Job, you know, he's having it out with the Creator.'
'Oh,' they said, 'Ah, well we didn't get that, you know, what-- was it necessary about the cigarette?' And I said, 'Well, I don't even smoke anymore, so I, I, I'm not, I'm not thrilled about that. But, you know, they asked me to do it as a sign of disrespect or, you know, despair.' I said, 'I guess it's both. And so I did it.'
And, uh, and they came around. You know, they, they got it. But I didn't have any hesitation doing it. And I learned it by rote. And, uh, when we got to the cathedral, I remember doing the master in one take.
Lee
Martin
And I remember-- yeah. And after we did it, I, I went over just to, you know, relax a little bit in the dark, and Aaron Sorkin came over and he just said, 'Thank you.'
Lee
Martin
Lee
Martin
It was just like he, he didn't expect to say it. He didn't realize the power of the scene. He's not Catholic, you know, and he, he-- [00:42:00] you know, when I, when I agreed to do the character, I only asked for two things - that he be Catholic and that he have a Notre Dame degree.
[Both laugh]
Lee
Which of, which of course, I liked. I like that part, yeah.
Martin
Is that playing the dozens or what, you know. I'm not saying I want it my way, but I want it my way.
And, uh, and that's, that's what he said. And he was so moved by it. That's all he could say to me.
Lee
Martin
He just said 'Thank you.'
Lee
Martin
And it was like he didn't realize how powerful it was.
Lee
Martin
I don't think any of us did.
Lee
Yeah.
Well, we've gotta get you out of here because you, you're on your way to, to mass, but, so last quick question.
Martin
Lee
What's the Eucharist mean for you? You, you do this regularly, I take it.
Martin
Lee
Martin
I was just at a funeral this morning and I-- yeah, as I went to... yeah, no, the Eucharist, I think it comes from the, the Greek word, uh, is it 'celebration'?
Lee
Uh, giving of thanks. Yeah.
Martin
Lee
Martin
Okay. Yeah. Well, it's, it-- [sighs] it's so deeply personal. [00:43:00] I began to realize that, yeah, if it's not personal, it's impersonal. In the Catholic church, of course, we don't, we, we don't accept it as a representation. We really believe that in the transubstantiation that it is not a representation of, but it is in fact, in our dogma, it is Jesus himself who comes to us in the bread and the wine.
And so just focusing on that, the prayer before Communion is the most powerful. I barely can get it out. It's like, uh, Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed. And I say that so personally and so needfully and honestly, and it's like, you know, it's, you've called me here and I've come to see you again.
And it's deeply pro-- I, I'm very curious about how people pray. What do you see? What do you feel? How do you get there? Is it satisfying? And what keeps you coming back, you know?
[00:44:00] For me it is a, it is, it is part of the community. You can't do it alone... and you shouldn't. You should worship together. But there, you bring all of yourself, you bring your family, your history, your health, your brokenness, your own personal brokenness.
And I began to realize how important it is to recognize that - that the only way it seems to me that God can get in is through the broken parts, is when we're-- 'cause that's when we're open. And so our brokenness is really a blessing. So it's blessed brokenness, and it's like, here comes the healing. This is, this is, you know, it's, it's recognizing God's presence in, in Jesus. And it's like...wow. You know?
It's like Joe Cosgrove once told me-- he's a, he'd Notre Dame too, you know, and he studied theology and law, he's a lawyer. But he once said, 'You know, the only miracle that had no witnesses was the [00:45:00] resurrection.'
Lee
Martin
That's the only really important one, [both laugh] because that's the one, if everyone saw it, you know, uh, then there would-- it wouldn't be a question of belief, it would be recognition. Of course, I saw him, you know? Yeah, he was lying there one minute, next minute he got up and said, hallelujah, let, let's, you know, uh, celebrate. But no one saw it. Nobody saw it. And, you know, there are two favorite passages in the gospel for me.
"Early in the morning on the first day of the week, the women..." It's about the women, you know? All those cowardly men were all hiding. They, they were fearing the same fate as the master. But the women were out there in front, you know, they were with him.
And, and, and even when the master came back, first time they saw him, he didn't say, 'Where were you when they were beating me and cruc--? I didn't see a single one of you, save for the women of course, but I didn't see you there.' No. He said, peace be with you.
Lee
Martin
He understands our brokenness, [00:46:00] our, our fear, our-- and that's what I just, I just become-- I just, I just celebrate my blessed brokenness. And I say, and like that hymn, here I am, Lord.
That's all I got. That's all I can bring today. Today I had a fight with so-and-so. Today I had a-- you know, I, I trashed so-and-so today. I refused to accept somebody some day. I was unkind. Today I did this, I did that, I did that. And I, and I bring all that, and I say, you know everything about me, and so do I.
Lee
Martin
It's not just known to you. I know it too. I'm broken. Fix me. Which is one of my favorite hymns.
Lee
Martin
Fix Me. I'm broken. There you have it.
Lee
Been talking to Martin Sheen here at his home in Malibu. Thank you for your hospitality [Martin laughs] and your, and your generosity with us today.
Martin
Lee
Martin
It takes one to know one. I'm delighted to meet you.
Lee
Delighted to meet you. Thank you so much.
Martin
Peace be with you, brother.
Lee
Peace be with you, brother.
Martin
Lee
You've been listening to No Small Endeavor and our interview with world renowned actor and activist, Martin Sheen.
You can hear our interviews with two of Martin's friends mentioned in this episode, both of whom he shared a jail cell with in the late '80s - John Dear and James Lawson. My conversation with each of them can be found on our podcast, including the unabridged interviews with each of them. Available wherever you get your podcasts.
We gratefully acknowledge the support of Lilly Endowment Incorporated, a private philanthropic foundation supporting the causes of community development, education, and religion, and the support of the John Templeton Foundation, whose vision is to become a global catalyst for discoveries that contribute to human flourishing.
Our thanks to all the stellar team that makes this show possible. Christie Bragg, Jakob Lewis, Sophie Byard, Tom Anderson, Kate Hays, [00:48:00] Mary Eveleen Brown, Ellis Osburn, Jason Sheesley, and Tim Lauer.
Thanks for listening. And let's keep exploring what it means to live a good life, together. No Small Endeavor is a production of Tokens Media, LLC and Great Feeling Studios.
