Lee
[00:00:00] I'm Lee C. Camp, and this is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
Heather
Do good conversations create personal closeness, and is it really true that when you have good conversations, it could intervene in the loneliness epidemic?
Lee
That's Heather Holleman, professor, and author of The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility.
She's researched and compiled tried and true ways of connecting, to combat the so-called loneliness epidemic. Talking to her convinced me that conversation might be one of the most basic keys to human flourishing.
Heather
The research shows you have to believe the best about someone, be curious, express concern, and share your life. And if one of those things is missing, you're not going to have a warm connection.
Lee
All coming right up.[00:01:00]
I'm Lee C. Camp. This is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
Repeatedly on No Small Endeavor, we've heard from guests about the troubling research indicating that western civilization is facing a profound crisis of loneliness, an epidemic of isolation.
As a college professor, our guest today found that her undergrad students didn't have a basic skill, one that in earlier days we perhaps took for granted. That skill? How to talk to one another. How to have a meaningful and connecting conversation.
So, like a good professor, she set to work on research and writing, to produce a book for her students. A sort of primer on how to have conversations. How to listen, sorts of questions to ask, how to authentically engage another human being. It's a toolkit for one powerful antidote to the raging loneliness epidemic.
Here's Dr. Heather [00:02:00] Holleman on the art of conversation.
Dr. Heather Holleman is an associate teaching professor at Penn State, has won numerous teaching awards in the last 20 years. She's the author previously of eight books. Today we're talking about her ninth book and most recent book, The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility.
Welcome, Heather.
Heather
Oh, I'm so excited to be on your program. This is going to be a great conversation.
Lee
Yeah, well, I'm delighted to have you. I love your book.
And I must say, when we were talking about whether we would get to do an interview with you, I looked on your website and I saw that as a professor teaching writing, you love the semicolon, and that closed the deal for me.
I love semicolons.
Heather
I love semicolons. They're the most underused and misunderstood punctuation mark for sure.
Lee
Misunderstood. I know. Yes.
Heather
Lee
And they function so beautifully.
Heather
They do. They create rhythm. They're a glorious punctuation mark. Okay, this is going well, Lee. I already feel good about this interview.
I love the semicolon. [00:03:00]
Lee
So, tell us, what's the story behind you writing a book on conversation, of all things?
Heather
Well, I was really captivated by three things.
The first was, my husband and I wrote a book on helping people talk about their faith and share about important things related to, you know, religious topics, their Christian faith. And we found that a lot of the people were saying, okay, we want to talk about these things, but can you go back a step? We don't even know how to have conversations in general anymore.
The second thing, which I'm sure as a professor has probably also captivated your heart, is the loneliness epidemic on college campuses. I was looking at my students, just reading the research from the Cigna Health Study, also the Harvard Grant Study of Human Development, that says the single most determining factor of a happy life is warm relationships. So that began my journey to write this book.
Lee
Yeah, that Harvard Grant study, I came across that, I don't know, three or four years ago. That is a remarkable study.
You want to tell, tell a little bit more about what you, what you know about that study?
Heather
[00:04:00] Yes. It's the longest research study. It's still going on. It started, I think, in the 1930s or '40s, maybe. And it, it tried to answer the question, what is the single most determining factor of a happy life?
And this study is phenomenal because it really reveals that the quality of life, the success you'll feel, your happiness levels, are all correlated to whether or not you experience what the researchers call warm relationships. So feeling warmly connected to people.
And as I would share this research with my students, I was amazed because they would say things like, "Well, how do you get those Dr. H? How do we get those warm relationships?"
So I began to ask the question, do good conversations create personal closeness, and is it really true that when you have good conversations it could intervene in the loneliness epidemic?
So I'm not a social scientist, but what I do is investigate and synthesize all the data that I'm seeing from the social scientists who are doing all the [00:05:00] work on human flourishing.
Lee
Yeah. Remarkable.
Uh, and yeah, then over against that, you cite the rising, as you mentioned a moment ago, the rising incident rate of what some are calling deaths of despair...
Heather
Oh, the diseases of despair. That, well, that came out even after I had compiled all the data.
I just got a email - in the state of Pennsylvania, they're linking diseases of despair. So that's suicide, addictions... they are linking those to the lack of community connection, social support.
And then, you know, at the same time, the Cigna Health Study is a study of 20,000 US adults. And these report-- the report is staggering. It said that half of Americans are reporting that they sometimes or always feel alone. Half of Americans reported that they do not have daily meaningful conversations.
So that really motivated me. Also, I have a very personal reason why I wrote this book. I am someone that battled [00:06:00] loneliness, you know, from long... part of my life-- my, I come from a military family. I, you know, I didn't have the best conversations growing up in my family, and having to travel so much, and I just was always seeking, like, how do I connect with people? How, how do I have relationships? So it was a personal exploration for me as well.
Lee
Yeah. Yeah.
That loneliness piece, I would flashback to a st-- conversation I had with one of my favorite students I've had through two decades of teaching, and he went on to do a PhD in religion. And in those years, especially as an undergrad and then right out of undergrad work, he was doing a lot of social justice work, really great social justice work, and a very kind human being.
But I remember having this conversation with him one day about the art of small talk. He was not from the Southeast, you know, and we in the Southeast, we love small talk.
And I said something about, I said something about the art of small talk or the importance of small talk, and he looked at me kind of surprised. And I said, I said, "Well, I wouldn't take lightly the fact that [00:07:00] having the art of engaging someone in small talk may be the only act of kindness a lot of people experience all day long.
Heather
Lee
And, and he was very, you know, I, I could tell he kind of paid attention to that. But what, what you've done in your book is that you've upped the ante on us, right? You're, you're going well beyond the art of small talk.
Heather
Lee
Until the very engaged art of conversation. And even suggest, in a helpful way, I think, that-- a provocative way, I think, that conversation may be one of the most tangible ways we love other people that we don't, we don't typically think of as a form of love.
But talk to us a little bit--
Heather
No, it is. And in fact, I was really struck by, as I compiled all this social science data about the mindset you need in order to have a loving connection with someone, what I loved is how it was so rooted in my own Christian theology.
I was reading about, how do you really love someone? What are the mindsets of when Jesus says to love your neighbor? Like, okay, how do I really love someone?
So I compiled what, the four things you really need in order to love [00:08:00] someone in conversation. And when I say them to you, Lee, you're going to think, oh, that's easy. That's basic. But listen, everyone needs to grow in these areas. I've never met one person who wouldn't want to grow in the art of conversation and loving connection.
So the four mindsets are really simple. The research shows you have to believe the best about someone, be curious, express concern, and share your life. And if one of those things is missing, you're not going to have a warm connection.
And guess what? They're all part of the wisdom literature of the Bible of how to interact well with another person.
Lee
Yeah.
Well, I'll tell you, I found-- you've got these great sets of numbers, four, three, and six in the book.
They were so helpful, I thought, and they're so practical. I, I developed my own acronym to, to memorize them.
Heather
Lee
And so for, for the first one, I'll just share with everybody else so that, because we're going to cover a lot of ground, so maybe other, this will help other people capture this good stuff that you got.
So the first one for me was be, leave the best, invest, divest.
Heather
Alright, can I steal that? Can I steal that?
Lee
Heather
So say them again for us. Say them again for us.
Lee
So it's [00:09:00] be, the word "be." Be. And then next is to "-lieve" the best. Three, invest. Four, divest. And so the way I think about that is be curious, believe the best, invest - show concern - and divest, which for me is I have to divest myself of protection and control in order to do the mutually vulnerable sharing that you're calling us to.
Heather
Oh, I love that. I can tell you're an educator because you've just helped me with my own book and radio interviews. You know, these are really easy. Did you do that for the other, you know, the three fresh goals or the six conversations?
Lee
I did. I did. Yes, so I'll share those when we get to those.
Heather
Lee
But let's talk more about this one. So, talk about curiosity. I love the habit of curiosity. But talk to us more about how you think this works in conversation.
Heather
Well, I need to tell you, I teach professional development as part of my job with the Honors College.
And I told my students, the research shows that one of the best professional skills you can develop as a, as a young [00:10:00] professional is the art of interpersonal curiosity. That means you're curious about other people. And people who are interpersonally curious have better marriages, better mental health, they're more creative, they feel bonded to people.
So it's basically being interested in other people. And so my students are like, what do we say? How do you, how do you begin to be interested in other people? And that's why I'm kind of known as the name game professor at Penn State, because I make everyone, you know, answer an attendance question.
But even just imagining... you know, I help my students, you know, imagine that this person has, like, got a buried treasure inside their soul, you know, they are, they have a one-of-a-kind viewpoint on the universe, just because of who they are. This person sitting beside you, you know, ask them something about their life. You don't know what's going to happen when you have a bond with someone.
And I tell them my favorite question. If you're nervous, if you don't know how to connect with a new friend, I, I, you know, turn to the person beside you and I say to them, [00:11:00] just say, "Hey, I want to get to know you. What question do you like people to ask you about your life?"
Lee
Heather
Lee
Heather
I have, I have saved more dates, more sorority rushes. I had a, I had a woman call me in desperation. It was Valentine's Day. She said to me, "Dr. H., either I'm going to break up with my boyfriend or we're finally going to have the bond that we need tonight. What do I say to get--" They just, they text all the time, but there was no warm connection.
And that kind of lets you know how bad it is for young people. They, they do a lot online, but when it's time to come together over dinner, are you able to carry a conversation? So I said, "Look, just say to, say to the guy, you know, we haven't connected in a while, you know, what are you really hoping I'll ask you about?"
And the student said, "Do you actually do that with your own husband?" I said, "All the time." If we haven't had a good conversation, I'll say to Ash, "What have you been thinking about? What are you hoping that I'll ask you about?" And usually it's [00:12:00] something that I had no idea, like about a woodworking project or like a conversation he had with a neighbor and his dog.
So I love interpersonal curiosity and it's really rooted in the belief that other people have value, that they're going to offer you something wonderful. And if you're lonely... I have a professor in my life who, admittedly, is very lonely, and when I shared with him about this book, he goes, "Well, to be honest, I just don't care about other people. I'm not curious about them. I don't care about them."
I said, "Well, that's probably where we need to start in your area of growth."
Lee
Just as an aside too, I mean, I think, you know, for me in doing virtue tradition stuff, the focus on habits is always crucial, you know? And for me, I think the, the general habit of curiosity is one of the most fundamental habits that gets me into a space of [00:13:00] joy and awe that we'll talk about in a minute, right, is that, you know, just being curious about life and curious about different fields and different things that people know so much about that I know so little about, you know?
Heather
Lee
And it becomes a great way, as you say here, of connecting with people in very real and substantive ways.
Heather
Lee
Heather
People will feel connected. Yes.
Lee
Yes. Yep. Yep. Any other kind of quick things on be curious, believe the best, invest, or mutual sharing and openness?
Heather
Well, sometimes when I teach on this, people really do want to confess that they don't believe the best about other people. And that, that, if that is missing, you're not going to feel a warm connection on either direction because you're in the area of suspicion and judgment. And so believing the best about other people means that you show them what psychologists call unconditional positive regard.
It's the idea of, like, representing God's unmerited favor towards us, and people have a really hard time doing that. I talk in the book about the industry of outrage and [00:14:00] cancel culture, and I tell my students, give people a chance. If they disagree with you, find out the story of why they believe what they believe, but believe the best about them.
It saved my marriage. It saves my relationship with my children. If you remove that attitude of suspicion and judgment, you're going to feel really warmly connected to the people in your life.
Lee
Heather
Yes, you're such a good interviewer. Like, let's go there.
I know, I had to ask my husband permission.
You know, when we got married, I was just such a highly critical spouse. I was sort of keeping record of wrong. I was assuming he was going to let me down and fail me. And one of my mentors talked to me about this idea of unconditional positive regard and the idea of accepting someone totally, like, can you imagine if you looked at your spouse and said, "I accept you totally, I believe the best about you. I believe that everything you're doing, you're doing from a position of love."
It changed my whole marriage. Instead of thinking, oh, he's not taking the trash out, [00:15:00] I said, maybe my husband's not taking the trash out because he's involved in a really important conversation and caring for a neighbor right now.
Believe the best about him. Don't believe-- you know what I mean? Just change your attitude. So it did.
And now, when you believe the best about someone, it's important to express likings. The research shows you actually have to articulate-- this comes out of the Yale Relationship Lab. You actually have to tell people that you like them.
Tell them that you enjoy being with them, that you're excited to be talking to them, talk about a favorite memory you have, compliment their character. We're really bad at doing that. And when you start doing that, research shows you're going to feel bonded to people. They're going to want to be with you. It's expressing gratitude because you're believing the best about them.
So I usually start conversations by saying, "I'm so glad to be with you. In fact, just this morning, I remembered this memory of us." And then it just creates this warm feeling when you recall memories. So that comes out of the Yale research on closeness-enhancing behaviors.[00:16:00]
Lee
You're listening to No Small Endeavor and our conversation with Heather Holleman.
I love hearing from you. Tell us what you're reading, who you're paying attention to, or send us feedback about today's episode. You can reach me at lee@nosmallendeavor.com.
You can get show notes for this episode in your podcast app or wherever you listen. These notes include links to resources mentioned in the episode, as well as a PDF of my complete interview notes, and a full transcript.
We'd be delighted if you'd tell your friends about No Small Endeavor and invite them to join us on the podcast. It helps extend the reach of the beauty, truth, and goodness we are seeking to sow in the world.
Coming up, more from Heather about how having good conversations might be a key aspect of a flourishing life.[00:17:00]
I've seen people raise the question about, to use the technical language, you know, about the over-instrumentalized nature of social science findings towards our own personal happiness. So in other words, we can say, well, if you'll do X, Y, and Z, then you're going to be happy because you're going to get A, B, and C.
Heather
Lee
How do you yourself think about these social science findings so that they're not merely instruments to one's own pleasure, even though that's a very legitimate part of being human? I don't know, how do you think about that? How would you respond to that kind of critique?
Heather
Well, I love social science.
Well, first of all, I love-- if I could go back, I would get a PhD in neuroscience. Like, when I was trying to research what happens when you ask a question rooted in interpersonal curiosity and, and regions of the brain light up, people trace, you know, serotonin, what's happening with dopamine. It's so good for the brain.
So I love [00:18:00] stuff like that, because I'm really curious about, is social science, are the things that we're seeing really rooted in what's happening in the brain? But as a Christian, as someone who cares deeply about the Bible, I always hold up social science to what has God already taught us about this? Is this confirming what we already know about what it means to be human?
And so as I was compiling all the data on the four mindsets, I was looking at favorite passages, Philippians 2, Romans 12, you know, Galatians 6. And I was like, gosh, it says to live a meaningful life, a life that is, you know, that is like Christ, you're going to do these things. You're going to be curious about people, because it talks about, the Bible talks about taking on the interest of other people.
How do you do that? How do you do that if you're not going to ask questions about their life? And so I don't over rely. I hear what you're saying, Lee. I don't over rely on social science, but when you have something like the Harvard Grant Study, that's 80 years strong, I'm going to look at that data.
Lee
Heather
If you're, if you have a study of 20,000 [00:19:00] US adults saying that over half of Americans do not have meaningful conversations, I love that. When you have people in a lab asking them about closeness enhancing behaviors and you're kind of getting the report of how they're self-reporting their experiences, I do think those are meaningful.
But, and you got to try it out for yourself. What I love about this is as you try the kind of things I have found in the Sixth Conversation book, it's, it's worked for me. It works for my students. You know, I have my own, you know, data. This does help well-being and happiness and it's biblical, so.
Lee
And you know, there, there used to be an old... in my mind, terribly unhelpful dichotomy that I would hear preachers draw when I was a kid, between pragmatism on the one hand and, and the gospel on the other.
Heather
Lee
And it's like, why do you have to draw a distinction between those, right? The question is, is our theological claim that we're making actually true to the grain of the universe or not?
Heather
Lee
And if it's true to the grain of the universe, then well, things ought to work this way.
Heather
Lee
So pragmatism [00:20:00] actually can be very helpful, I think.
Heather
Well, that was such a delight, in the book, for me to read these research articles and say, oh yeah, that Paul's letter to the Philippians already said this. This is what he said.
Lee
That's right. And it resonates with social science, right?
Heather
Yeah, yeah. This is what we're learning.
So, um... but I think the draw as an academic to also use social science means that it just fills out our understanding even more. So I'm someone who's not opposed to reading the Bible and then saying, okay, is there a research study where we're seeing this happen in the culture?
I love stuff like that. And it doesn't ever diminish my faith. It only enhances it. So that's what I love about research.
Lee
Heather
Yes. Three fresh goals of conversation. What, how did you, um...
Lee
You tell, you tell them first, and then I'll tell you my, my way I memorized them.
Heather
Well, as I-- and this is a more theological [00:21:00] chapter, and this is also a chapter, as I looked in my own life and looked at the lives of my students, when they're like, well, how do we move from the small talk, the chit chat, to something that really feels meaningful and connected, and I said, "Well, think about your conversations ending in encouragement, personal growth, or marveling."
And that's where I did the research on the benefits of awe. And if you're talking to someone like, Lee, if you and I talked about something that made us come to a place of worship or awe or marvel, we would feel differently about this conversation.
Lee
Heather
And so, encouragement, personal growth, and marveling.
Okay. So how do you, how did you decide to remember those?
Lee
Well, you helped me invent a new word.
Heather
Lee
But my three words are encourage, engender--
Heather
Lee
And "enawe." E-N-A-W-E. It's crazy we don't have that word, right? But encourage is to help facilitate courage in others, engender, to help get people to grow, and [00:22:00] "enawe," to help facilitate awe in people.
So I think we should make it a new word.
Heather
I love that. I love that. Would you like to travel alongside me and my husband and just help me with all my speaking events, and you just craft all the language to help people remember?
Lee
Some of my friends are rolling their eyes at me right now. So let's talk about, um, one thing that struck me about this, is that, you know, if you go back to Aristotle and friendship--
Heather
Lee
He talks about how there's three classes. He and others-- I think Aquinas picked this up too. You know, there are three kind of classes of friendship. One is the kind of utilitarian friendship, you know, that you have with the car mechanic. Then the next one is the friendship of pleasure. You're friends because you just enjoy being with each other. And then the third is the friendship of common purpose or common cause, in which you help one another grow into the person that you're wanting to become.
And it strikes me that what you're pointing to here with these three is especially that third category of friendship, but also the second one of pleasure. [00:23:00] But tell us a little bit more about how you see this facility-- both of, all three of these things facilitating friendship and relationship.
Heather
Well, what I believe... you know, imagine yourself at a at a dinner party or you're out with people, and how many times have you just left feeling empty, like nothing significant happened. There was no connection. And I just, I lived most of my life feeling that way. I don't belong. I don't feel connected to anyone.
And then I noticed the conversations I had where I would share something, where they would share something, and we would, we would just encourage each other. We would talk about God's faithfulness. We would talk about-- you know, saying words that give, you know, literally, "encourage," give people, you know, a vision, hope, passion. I, I would just feel so full inside.
And then, the personal growth. I mean, I loved, um, I mean, James Clear, I love Atomic Habits and some of his thinking, but the idea that when you're involved with someone in a joint pursuit, that is a joyful and wonderful friendship.
And so in the book, I [00:24:00] talk about going out with this one couple every month and the whole purpose-- they love talking about, okay, what projects are you working on? And then they move down the six conversations, which is a huge part of this book. What, what are the six pathways to connection? And I would just feel so loved and connected and not alone.
And then, I feel like when you think about friendship that way, it also gives you a purpose to the time together.
So in any interaction, are you helping someone achieve their goals? It's very loving, like, how can I help you with whatever is happening in your life? And then awe is just, there's just kind of indisputable evidence about what happens when you're in a state of awe. You are more socially connected. You are happier, you are... things feel meaningful.
And that is really hard to do. I don't know if you've been in a conversation where the person is able to help you marvel at something.
And usually you're in the realm of spiritual conversations at that [00:25:00] point. Although, you know, the neighbors and I were talking about the International Space Station when it went above our house the other night, and we just kind of stood there in a state of awe together and talked about like, oh my gosh, right now it just passed Brazil. We were waving to the space station. And it was this moment of talking about space and, you know, the sublime experience of the space station over our heads.
So those three things really make conversations feel warm, connected, and meaningful.
Lee
One thing that strikes me about those three goals is, as you said, or alluded to, how seldom we hold those up as, this is what I'm trying to do when I'm having a conversation. And I think the immediate depths and riches of conversation [00:26:00] would grow so rapidly by holding those sorts of goals up.
Heather
Lee
The thing on awe is, is fascinating to me, and I think the phrase "art of conversation" is crucial here, because I can, I can imagine some people trying to do this with me and me being put off, and then other people I can imagine doing it with me and, and, and think, oh yeah, that was pretty great.
But you pointing to the research about this was, was fascinating to me as well. I'm going to read this one passage.
You said, "What if our conversations helped one another increase our capacity of awe? As I read about the benefits of awe, including how cultivating awe leads to kindness, patience, gratitude, happiness, increasing life satisfaction, creativity, and even lowered inflammation in the body, I decided to take seriously the task of helping others experience awe.
I liked what I studied about how awe, 'reduces self focus, promotes social connection. and fosters pro-social actions by encouraging a, "small self."'". That's fascinating. [00:27:00]
Heather
Lee
Yeah, but tell us more about that.
Heather
Well, I have a mentor, Sandy, who-- all these people have let me share their stories, but she really believes in the power of the awe walk. And that means we leave the house to go on a walk, and she is someone who will say, "Heather, why did God make birds? He didn't have to, and He didn't have to make them sing."
And she will go on and on about the mystery of birds, and like we're in the realm of mystery. How do little birds know their particular bird song? We'll go on and on. And by the end I'm, like, overwhelmed with awe. And and the idea of, like, pro-social behavior, meaning like, after I walk with Sandy, I want to go help the world.
I'm happy, I'm creative. And she's someone that helps me see the mystery and the beauty of nature. So I love that.
But with my students, I love getting them into the realm of mystery. That's a good way to get people to experience awe. So I'll say, you know, as a name game, I'll say, "Okay, how many of you have [00:28:00] experienced something that you would define as unexplainable or supernatural?"
Oh my gosh, Lee, they love those conversations. And then by the end, I'm like, "You guys, there are things we cannot explain."
You know, and they're just like, you know, and then I'm like, "Now go write your essay," because I've made their brain more creative and we're more connected with each other.
Um, it's sort of the idea of the campfire, telling ghost stories around the campfire. It's really about awe, and about mystery. So I do love that.
And I love-- in the book, I also give advice about keeping your awe portfolio. Even asking people, when was the last time you really experienced awe? My students will say being in the stadium for a Penn State football game, because they've never, you know, small town farming communities. They've never been around people like that, you know, 200,000 people.
Yeah. So, awe.
Lee
Yeah, that's fascinating. You know, I certainly have learned through the years to kind of keep a-- and my catalog is, it's not very thick, but certainly I cherish, kind of, sense of mystical experiences I've had that I [00:29:00] can't make sense of.
Heather
Lee
That have been important to me in various ways.
Heather
Now I want to know all of those. See, see Lee?
Now I'm like, okay, let's go have coffee, bring your family, let's all talk about these mystical experiences. People love that. I think we're made for that, and and our capacity for wonder is so great, and a lot of times we're distracting ourselves with these lesser forms of entertainment when we're really designed for wonder, and I love that you keep track of those mystical experiences.
That's why I love talking about my prayer journal. And my students know I have this detailed prayer journal, and I tell them, look, there are things that happen in my life that I cannot explain. And I write down when I believe there's been divine intervention in my life. That's all students want to come to office hours to talk about.
They'll say, "Dr. H, you know, I'm an atheist. Put me in that prayer journal." They'll want to, like, talk about it. So prayer, all of those things. So I love that you do that.
Lee
Will you talk to us about, I don't remember exactly where it was in the book, but you talk about some sort of MRI study that shows the ways various parts of the [00:30:00] brain, the pleasure part of the brain lights up when someone is simply asked a good question.
Heather
Yeah, the spark questions. Yes.
Lee
Yeah. So what's that? What's that about?
Heather
Oh, I love the spark questions. This is the, this is the foundation of how I survived the pandemic, teaching at a university during the pandemic. So imagine, people are depressed, they're burnt out, they're scared. I've never seen more mental health issues.
So what I had to do is quickly elevate the positive mood in my classroom. I had to figure out a way to get these students engaged again. And I learned about spark questions.
Spark questions are the questions you ask that release the neurochemicals that make people feel engaged and happy. And the spark questions are so easy.
Here they are. Are you celebrating anything? What's your good news? What are you looking forward to this week? You know, and then, so, anything that gets students thinking about positive things, hopeful things.
But then, in that research, I actually found a spark question [00:31:00] that is profoundly useful for teenagers, introverts, or people who actually do not like to have conversation because they're shy, whatever. Here it is. Ask people a numbers question. So instead of asking, how was your day? I've learned to ask my daughters, on a scale of 1 to 10, how was your day? And then whatever they answer, you say, what would have to happen to make it a 10?
You will learn more about your child in that moment than hours of conversation. And I love that question even for myself. If I come home from a trip and Ash says, "On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best, how great was that trip?" I'll say, "A 7." And he'll say, "What would have had to happen to make it a 10?"
And you know what I always say? "The coffee. The coffee was terrible." You know, it's just, I'm, I'm such a big-- I'm easy to please, Lee. But that's a spark question, because you're getting students to think, okay, what do I really need to feel good?
And so you're going to learn a lot about-- if you're, if [00:32:00] you're like leading a class or a seminar or Bible study, whatever it is, ask that question, because people like numbers, they know how to answer a numbers question, and then you immediately get them in that cognitive realm. What would have to happen to make your day a 10?
Lee
We're going to take a short break, but coming right up, Heather gives us the six paths to conversation, complete with practical steps to getting better at each.
Well, I imagine some folks are waiting for the list of six.
Heather
Lee
So, um, give us those six paths to conversation.
Heather
Yes. Now, this is so basic. You're gonna-- this is why I asked Gary Chapman to write the foreword, because I love the five love languages. It's so simple. It's intuitive. People love it.
[00:33:00] But this actually was my husband's idea, because so many graduate students were asking us for the basic skills about how to have conversations. So, we do ministry with PhD and master's students. They were saying, "We need help."
So my husband said, look, just go down the six dimensions of what it means to be human. Ask questions in one of six categories. And this is the day I started writing the book. I took out my pen. Every person you meet is social, physical, emotional, cognitive, meaning they have thoughts about things, volitional... a lot of people don't know that word. It means the choices that you are making, and you're spiritual.
So if I'm meeting with someone, imagine, you know, one of the stories that I have recently been telling people, it happened after the book came out... if you ask a person, you know, "how are you doing?" Or, "how are you feeling?" And they say they've had a hard time and they say, "I just feel really bewildered." You have six options.
You can say, [00:34:00] "I don't even know where to go next, but are you sharing with other people about that?" Ask a social question.
Or ask a physical question. "How does that feel in your body?" Especially when I'm dealing with people who are grieving, I'll say, you know, "Where are you feeling that grief in your body?"
Or if I can't get someone to open up. I've learned that people really like to talk about their physical spaces. Like, Lee, if you and I had a hard time connecting, I would say, "Oh, I really want to know about your house. Are you guys doing any house projects or gardening?"
Cognitive. Easy. Just say, "What, what, how are you making sense of that emotion? What is bewilderment?"
Volitional. "What do you do when you feel bewildered?" And, and believe it or not, that's what my friend wanted to talk about, the ritual she's putting into place when she feels bewildered, um, struggling in her faith.
And the last one is obviously my favorite. "Where are you experiencing God in this," or "how is this experience impacting your faith?"
So you move through those dimensions of being human, and the book gives you [00:35:00] my ten favorite questions about how to start a conversation in that pathway, and then how to follow up.
The beautiful thing about the book, because I don't know, we're obviously not going to have time to talk about everything, but the assessments about how to discover what people actually like to talk about. And also, what you like to talk about. And how to, so you'll really have a lot of self-awareness and then figure out how to really love people.
And um, after I started implementing the six conversations, I mean, Lee, I would get thank you notes and gifts from people saying, "I felt so loved in that conversation. Please tell me what you're doing. How are you doing this? I, you know, I pay my therapist a fortune. How are you asking me these questions?"
So I feel like, you know, your listeners, you're going to really love this book. It really does give you a framework for how to connect deeply with people in loving ways. It's really going to make you feel [00:36:00] like you're never going to get lost in a conversation again.
Lee
Yeah, you have loads of great examples and practical advice on how to implement a lot of this that I certainly recommend to folks to continue to check out.
Yes, so the way I learned, I-- remember, this is just an acronym, so it wasn't as interesting on this one. SEP-C-V-S.
Heather
Lee
S-E-P-C-V-S works for me on this.
Heather
Ooh, so you start, okay, social, emotional, physical, volitional, okay, I love that.
Lee
Cognitive, volitional, spiritual, yeah. SEP-C-V-S.
Heather
Lee
So, the way I kind of saw you using, or one way I saw you using this in a very practical way, is that if you're trying to engage somebody in conversation, you kind of have that framework of those six pathways in your mind, and if they're just not clicking on, you're kind of trying one out, and if it doesn't go anywhere, you try another one out, if it didn't go anywhere-- until you find one that, all of a sudden they're off and running and talk about that part.
Heather
And they feel so loved. I mean, believe me, I taught technical writing to high achieving, by their own admission, [00:37:00] introverted, you know, aerospace engineers, students who did not-- they're like, no, we don't, you know, they know I'm writing this book and they're like, we don't like, we don't even like conversations. But they do. People want warm connections.
So I would constantly, like, run through my list and figure out, you know, what people most wanted to talk about. And guess, you know, in all of my research the, the chapter I actually love the best in this book is about listening.
Once you find that thing people want to talk about, nobody ever in my life taught me what it means to listen. What am I listening for? So that's actually my favorite chapter in the book is what you're listening for when someone talks.
Are you ready? You're going to love this. You're listening for core values. When someone talks to you, you want to be able to figure out, what does this person value and how can I support them in the things that they value?
So when I, when I did that research and tried it out just in my own life, I was amazed. So my neighbor, whenever she talks, I was like, wow. She's always [00:38:00] talking about, you know, doing these amazing things. This, this event, this amazing thing. And I said to her, she's an engineer, a chemical engineer. I said, "Wow, every time I talk to you, I said, it really feels like you value adventure."
She was like, yes, I do. And I went down the six conversations. I said, who's your favorite person to go on an adventure with? Next question, you know, we just talked. I, I wanted to learn how she defines adventure. I wanted to know how adventure works with faith.
Then with a business person who I was trying to become friends with. So imagine someone in your life you want to be friends with. I went to her office and she kept talking about how she felt like she wasn't able to do her best at a certain project. So I said to her, "I can really tell you value excellence." And she says, "I do. Oh my gosh, I do. You get me."
And she said, would you, you know, and I asked her just a couple questions. What, how do you handle that? What do you do? What are your choices if you know you can't do your best? And I wanted the story of that. Well, afterwards she said, "I have loved this conversation so much. Will you [00:39:00] please come to my office next week? I want to connect with you again."
Okay, Lee, I have more friends than I know what to do with. I have more people wanting to hang out, so loneliness will never be your problem again. So you're listening for core values and you're also listening for the story of transformation, which is probably too much to cover on a podcast, but I can tell you that's when you're listening for a story of change, because people love to tell stories of things that have changed in their life.
Lee
Do you have one or two questions that would invite people into sharing those kinds of stories?
Heather
Yes, if you're talking to someone who shares with you anything that relates to something that's changed. So, for example, if someone says, "I just started this new consulting business," which is a true story, it's in the book. I didn't know where to go next. I'm trying to connect with this woman at an event. All I said was, "I would love to hear the story of how that started," and just say, "what happened that made you do that?"
And what, that day, we were at a table and I didn't know anyone at my table, so imagine you're at a [00:40:00] wedding or something like that, a graduation party.
She said, "I was 50 years old..." She told the most profound story of courage and authenticity and choosing to leave her career at 50 years old. And she kept using the word 'professionally courageous.' So I said to her, "It sounds like you really value courage." Well, guess what?
The whole table, I said to them, "Has anyone else at this table done something that they would describe as professionally courageous?" Lee, we were so close and so connected. I was like, look, we gotta start a book club, the five of us. We didn't even know each other beforehand. Nobody knew each other, and now I knew all these women who took steps of professional courage.
So by the end, guess what? We were encouraged, we were growing together, and we were marveling. The three fresh goals.
So ask for, "tell me the story." Tell me the story. What happened?[00:41:00]
Lee
You cite the title of one article in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, entitled "Forget Small Talk: Why Emotionally Intelligent People Embrace Awkward Conversation, Backed by Science."
Heather
Lee
What a great, what a great title. It's a pretty impressive title for something like the Journal of Personality, I think, as well.
But that, in so many ways, is what you're inviting us into, I think, is to sort of, to push through what a lot of us might early on experience as awkwardness. But then all of a sudden, you've got these opportunities for connecting that you simply wouldn't have unless you have your own courage to walk into that awkwardness.
Heather
Lee
How do you encourage people that just feel like, I just don't have the courage to do that. I got too much social anxiety.
Heather
Lee
I'm not interested. Or, you know, how do people push through that to have the courage to step into these sorts of spaces?
Heather
Well, two things. The research shows that people like you more in conversation when you're awkward and [00:42:00] ask even sensitive personal questions.
If you're raised in the South, like my husband was, you've probably been taught, which I read in etiquette books, not to ask sensitive questions. Well, guess what? It builds intimacy, connection, people like you more when you ask a sensitive question. So number one, the research is in your favor.
Number two, I'm acknowledging here that it is hard. That's why I have a part of that book about having conversations by faith. Even-- I'm an extrovert. I love talking to people. Even I get nervous, Lee, when I'm approaching someone and I'm, I just think, oh my gosh, I'm so awkward. I don't know what I'm gonna say. I'm gonna be, make a fool of myself. What I say to myself is, look, I'm gonna do this by faith.
And it gets easier. And guess what? Fear in the brain is the same as excitement So I say to myself, yes, this is scary, but the benefits far outweigh the cost of me being ridiculous So I, when I did this, I kind of raced across campus to connect with this student, and I, all the fear [00:43:00] came, all the anxiety. So I'm just gonna do this by faith.
So I call out, I was like, "Malik, Malik! It's Dr. H.!" He stopped and opened his arms so wide, like he wanted to give me the biggest hug, and he was like, "Dr. H.!" And again, I was like, what am I gonna ask him? What am I gonna say?
So I said, you know, "How is your thesis going?" And he was like, "Fine." You know, no answer. So I went down the list. You know, "Who have you been hanging out with?" You know, he wanted to talk about his family and Thanksgiving and what he, what he ate, and food, you know, the physical. Some students love talking about food. That's why one of my favorite name games is, what's the best meal you've ever had on campus? People open up.
So get-- so the two things are, the research supports you. Number two, do it by faith, meaning it is going to be hard. The benefits far outweigh the cost, and it gets easier.
Lee
What keeps you stoked about writing about this, learning about it, teaching about it, talking about it?
Heather
I love the power of community.
I just love seeing [00:44:00] people come together in friendship and joy, and I've really devoted my life to building communities and seeing what happens when people really feel belonging.
As a Christian, I love that when I'm in rich community with people, when I get to talk about my faith, when I get to talk about things that are precious to me.
So I'm in Center County, Pennsylvania. It's not glamorous at all. I love my community. I can't wait for the block party tonight. I'm going over to someone's house for dinner with my kids.
My favorite question, by the way, in the six conversations is the cognitive. I love asking people, what are you learning? What are you reading? And that gets me stoked, the joy. And, you know, I am a theological person, that the book really talks about how when you do this, you're really reflecting the nature of God. Highly relational. It's probably the most loving thing you can do.[00:45:00]
Lee
As we're closing here, uh, let's do, for all of the listeners, recap again. Four mindsets?
Heather
Be curious, believe the best, express concern, and share your life.
Lee
Heather
You're going to encourage, you're gonna help grow each other, personal growth, and you're gonna marvel.
Lee
And the six conversations?
Heather
You're going to look at someone and you're going to say, okay, I'm going to ask a question in the category of social, emotional, physical, cognitive, volitional, or spiritual. And then you have endless permutations to go from there.
Lee
Yes.
And then, what would you say... give us three or four of your most recently discovered favorite questions you've asked folks.
Heather
Well, I already shared to ask people, what question do you wish I would ask you?
Yes.
Um, yes. I think [00:46:00] you should ask people... one thing I'm finding is how much people like to talk about their routines. I know this is odd. This actually isn't in the book.
Lee
Heather
Lee
I would love for somebody to ask me that.
Heather
Yeah. Would you? Okay. See, I just learned this. I talked to-- because you know, when you write a book, you get to talk to a lot of people. And so, I'm finding people love to talk about routines.
The other thing I learned is, the most overlooked category, that's the easiest to ask, but everyone forgets, is the physical. So people actually love to talk about their bodies. Like if I said, "Lee, you know, how did you sleep? How's your wife doing? How's her body doing?"
I mean, people actually need to talk about that and they love to talk about their bodies. So don't, don't forget the power of just asking someone, how are you sleeping? How's it going with your body? It seems inappropriate, but people love to talk about their bodies.
So those are probably my three favorite things.
Rituals, ask people what question they want you to ask them, and then don't forget to talk about physical things, the body and physical spaces.
Lee
I've been talking to Dr. Heather [00:47:00] Holloman, teaching professor at Penn State, on her most recent book, The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility.
And again, it's a book I just really like. So thank you, Heather, so much for your time.
Heather
Oh, this was a joy. This was a joy. Thank you, Lee.
Lee
You've been listening to No Small Endeavor and our interview with Dr. Heather Holleman, author of The Six Conversations and host of The Verb podcast.
We gratefully acknowledge the support of Lilly Endowment Incorporated, a private philanthropic foundation, supporting the causes of community development, education, and religion.
And the support of the John Templeton Foundation, whose vision is to become a global catalyst for discoveries that contribute to human flourishing.[00:48:00]
Our thanks to all the stellar team that makes this show possible. Christie Bragg, Jakob Lewis, Sophie Byard, Tom Anderson, Kate Hays, Mary Eveleen Brown, Cariad Harmon, Jason Sheesley, Ellis Osburn, and Tim Lauer.
Thanks for listening, and let's keep exploring what it means to live a good life, together. No Small Endeavor is a production of PRX, Tokens Media LLC, and Great Feeling Studios.