Lee
[00:00:00] I'm Lee C. Camp and this is No Small Endeavor - exploring what it means to live a good life.
Amy
I was never a kid that sang in the mirror, holding my hairbrush.
Lee
That's Amy Grant, whose career as a world-renowned singer-songwriter has earned her six Grammys, a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Kennedy Center Honors, and much more.
Amy
It's really been since last summer's accident that I have been more aware of my inner critic. A little over a year ago, our family started going to therapy.
Lee
Today, Amy opens up about the struggles of her past and present. Everything from recovering from a brain injury and throat surgery, to navigating a very public divorce and sharp public criticism, all while pursuing spiritual practices that cut through the clamor of a life lived in the spotlight.
All coming right up.[00:01:00]
I'm Lee C. Camp. This is No Small Endeavor - exploring what it means to live a good life.
One of the great gifts I was given in my mid 30s was a community of friends who knew how to practice a healthy vulnerability. It sometimes scared the daylights out of me. People sharing their deepest selves, their weaknesses, failures, inner dialogue, mixed motivations, grave temptations, character defects, as well as their victories and the things that made them happy and the moments that made them feel alive.
And out of such a context, I began to be convinced that a properly, prudently exercised vulnerability is something like a life superpower. There arise new possibilities for life, new possibilities for human connection. Life itself takes on an integrity, even when one's life is still utterly a mess.
So I particularly find myself [00:02:00] drawn to friends and acquaintances who freely practice such honesty. And this interview today with Amy Grant is one of those moments in which I felt so grateful to be present to someone who appears to have had years of practicing such honesty, such vulnerability. And of course it was a pleasure to visit with Vince Gill, Amy's husband, before the taping, and then to sit with Amy for a couple of hours.
We're pleased to share this interview, and if you'd like more you can get the unabridged version wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Grant is a musician, American singer-songwriter. Her career began as a teenager, being offered her first recording contract before her 16th birthday, originally in the contemporary Christian music genre, then crossing over to pop in the 80s and 90s.
She's sold more than 30 million albums, has won six Grammy Awards, 26 Dove Awards, She's been honored with a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and is a recipient of the prestigious Kennedy Center Honors... And [00:03:00] I'm very grateful to be with you here in your house today, Amy. Thanks so much for having us over today.
Amy
Thank you. It's great to have you, Lee.
Lee
Yeah, I've been looking forward to the conversation.
You and I share a heritage in a particular Christian tradition that has practiced a cappella hymn singing. And so I wonder, when you think back of some of your earliest childhood memories, what gets evoked for you in thinking about a cappella hymn singing?
Amy
Oh, that is my go to. For whatever reason, this memory popped into my head. I was visiting my mom in the last year of her life. She passed away of dementia in 2011. And I sang into a rousing verse and chorus of, um, Revive Us Again.
Lee
Amy
And I said, "Do you know that song, Mom?" And she said, "No, but I love it. Keep singing."
[Both laugh]
Yeah.
Lee
When you, um, you've also talked a lot about the [00:04:00] influence of your great-grandparents, A.M. and Mimi, I think you called her.
Amy
Lee
Yeah. And my first six or seven years as a professor, I spent every day going into a building named after A. M. Burton, your great-grandfather. And his sort of legendary generosity is something that's still known, I think, pretty widely in Nashville.
But what do you think that that memory, or whatever you saw of your great-grandparents and generosity, how has that informed you or how has that impacted you, you think?
Amy
Oh. My goodness.
Well, when you first said, like, Mimi and Granddad. We say it 'Mimi,' like, it's kind of a southern way. Um, and Mimi lived until my junior year in college. And so I knew her very well.
And granddad passed away right before I turned six. But I loved visits to their farm. And I grew up several years of my childhood on Shys Hill [00:05:00] Road, which was a road cut into the backside of their farm. And on that road was my grandmother's house, our house, seven homes of different cousins.
What I knew, growing up, from the time I played on that farm, was that, at the point that the second of those two passed, that they had already given everything away. And so, I-- we lived on that farm on borrowed time.
And, and I would say that was the most shaping thing for me, that I never presumed that my great-grandfather's hard work, developing the Life and Casualty office downtown, the insurance company, all of his hard work - it was his to give, to whomever he chose to give it. And to me, that was just like that subcutaneous understanding.
People work hard to have the life they have, and they can do whatever they choose to do [00:06:00]with what comes from that. And I knew that we played on that farm on borrowed time. And when my great-grandparents died, they made a gift of the farm, at least, I think, at the time in the '80s, it was about a 13 million dollar gift.
And I was so proud of them. And I received two lamps, two matching lamps, which are still in my home, and a day bed. And that, to me-- how do I say how that's informed my life? You know, I've given my money away as I've made it.
Lee
Amy
Lee
You've got a citation from him in your book, Mosaics, where he says, "Life is made up of golden chances, opportunities to do good. One lost is lost forever. If we miss doing a kindness to a friend, we can never do that kindness again. If we might speak a pleasant word or offer a bit of worthwhile counsel or advice, and failed to do so, [00:07:00] we can never have just that opportunity again. Giving is a way of life."
And so that's a, that's such a beautiful-- if we keep that kind of lens in front of us, the sort of ways that would inform our days in, in beautiful ways.
You ended up later at another church, where my wife Laura was raised. And I remember, through the years, her telling me about you playing some of your first performances there at the old coffee shop next door. And when you look back, what, maybe 45 years now, at that 15-year-old that you were, doing those early performances, how would you describe who that young 15, 16-year-old young woman was?
Amy
I feel like so much of my life, I was just drafting behind my sisters. My sisters were, the oldest was not quite 8 and a half years older than I, and then 6 and a half, not quite 2 years older. And so I sort of effortlessly slipped into every circle in the [00:08:00] shadow of my siblings.
I never felt like the center or the focus. All my ideas came from-- you know, through them. The two oldest ones went to school in Boston, kind of got involved with the hippie church, which led us going to Belmont. But everything in life, I was just like, it was like watching the future roll through them toward me.
And then when I found my life very different from my sisters', because it became public, I still felt so insulated by my family, even when we didn't spend time together. I felt like my identity was, I'm the youngest of these four women.
I saw the importance of what I did or didn't do as, well, this is how I'm spending my time. And it's just a different way, but how my sisters are involved in work, in raising kids, stay at home, working out in the workforce, you know, all of it was like, I had such a clear example of [00:09:00] women I dearly loved, who were not doing it all wrong and not doing it all right. They were also spending all of their time and energy invested in lives that mattered to them. And it helped me to see my life in the context of women.
Lee
Amy
Lee
Yeah. There was an article I came across, a Washington Post article, that was-- I'd never thought about this particular context, but a historian, John J. Thompson, was talking about thinking about what's happening in Koinonia Bookstore Coffeehouse, where you're first kind of playing, doing some of your first playing.
And he talks about how, you got to realize that late '60s, early '70s, people are disillusioned by race riots, assassinations, the Vietnam War, and then you have, kind of, as you, to use the language you just used, Jesus and hippie church. [00:10:00] Thompson says you got Jesus as a kind of countercultural peacenik, and that you're kind of doing some of your earliest work in that kind of context.
It's the Jesus who's, who's, who's kind of jarring against some of the, um, domestication of Jesus or domestication of religion. And it's a Jesus who points toward a kind of peaceableness or a different kind of way in the world. Does that resonate with you in any way, his interpretation? Or did you think very self-consciously at that time about what was going on culturally and the way in which Jesus or Christian faith fit in that context?
Amy
I mean, I can't honestly tell you I remember what I was thinking as a 15-year-old. I do remember growing up in the Church of Christ, I was not reared by parents who said, if people don't believe just like us, if they don't believe just like we do, they are mistaken. Or my parents [00:11:00]never had a, what I would describe in one way as a narrower mindset.
You know, the Church of Christ was like, don't add a jot or a tittle to the Bible. And I think, I was, I was brought up in a family that was more embracing of the mystery of God. And when my sisters came back from Boston and said, "Hey, there's this coffee shop downtown and it's connected to a church." Well, the preacher at that church was an old friend of my parents, but my dad was in leadership at a more conservative church that we loved.
I went to church camp every summer. I felt such security in the love of God. And I knew God loved the world. And so then, all of a sudden, to be brought into an environment that, like, all kinds of people were showing up... to me, I was going, oh, man, God loves the world? This is like, [00:12:00] I mean, these are like long-haired, you know, nobody has shoes on.
And it was-- you know, I was a little past the actual hippie movement, because I was born in the end of 1960. And so everything that was happening in California - they made the Jesus movie out of it - this was kind of whatever, a late wave of that. But there were just so many lives transformed by love.
I mean, what life is not transformed by love? And it was specifically love in the name of Jesus. But how that affected all of us to be involved in each other's lives, to help, to, 'I have this thing that you need. You have this thing that I need.' You know, just such a sense of community. And that was the experience that felt... I'd never been involved with something that felt so... come as you are, [00:13:00]nobody is excluded.
That was amazing. And then simultaneously, I'm going to an all girls prep school. It was not a Christian school, but every Wednesday we had chapel. It was just part of the prep school experience. And I sat through one chapel program one time that, in my opinion, was very political. And I said to myself, God, you could use some PR down here.
I mean, nobody's talking love and they're really talking politics. And I went home and started writing. You know, I was having this life and heart and spirit broadening experience at this hippie church. I was in a very academic world - my father's a doctor, very academic world - Monday through Friday.
And I, I loved my friends. I loved that-- and I thought, I wonder if I could cross-pollinate these worlds. I'm not asking them to join anything, I just want [00:14:00] them to know they're loved. And it felt, I felt the immediacy of how being loved can change a life.
I'll never forget one time when a woman got on stage and said, "I'm so scared, I'm, I'm sleeping with a man who's not my husband."
And, you know, I was just like, I ought to go pop some popcorn. This is like better than a movie. I mean, people are being real here. And then to have people just getting, getting up in front of everybody, and not being ashamed of saying, I'm a wreck, my life's a wreck.
And I think that affect my desire to share that kind of love response to vulnerability with people from all parts of my life. Because I thought, what have any of us got to lose? We are all a mess. And we are all loved.
Yeah, and somehow [00:15:00] that set me on this music path. And no one could be more surprised than I am.
Lee
In those early days of doing music, if I remember the story correctly, Brown Bannister perhaps communicated to you that you had gotten a first concert proposal.
Amy
Lee
$300. And you thought you were going to have to pay $300 to do the concert?
[Laughs]
Amy
Yes. Yeah. I know.
I wasn't in the phone book, but you know, people used to read album credits, and my producer was Brown Bannister. He was findable in the phone book. Lakeside Amusement Park in Denver, Colorado was having, I guess it was like a Christian music festival, and they called him.
And so, this was the summer after my freshman year. I was saving money [00:16:00] for my freshman year. My parents were obviously paying the tuition, but I had to, you know, I guess I got some kind of allowance, but I wanted some cash in the bank.
And he said, "You've been asked to come play at Lakeside Amusement Park for $300!" And I was like, I mean, good news, bad news. I was like, $300, God, I think I've got 500 bucks saved. If I blow $300 on Lakeside Amusement Park, I'll have like nothing. But can I also say, I think that was inherent in how I felt about what I had to offer.
Who in the world would pay to hear me sing? It didn't even matter that I'd make a record. That I had already made a record. It was like... You know, recording has never been easy for me. I can feel comfortable singing. All of a sudden they hit record and I see those red lights and I'm like, ugh.
But I love singing. I love what music does to people.[00:17:00]
Lee
You're listening to No Small Endeavor and our interview with Amy Grant.
I love hearing from you. Tell us what you're reading, who you're paying attention to, or send us feedback about today's episode. You can reach me at lee@nosmallendeavor.com.
You can get show notes for this episode in your podcast app or wherever you listen. These notes include links to resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a PDF of my complete interview notes, and a full transcript. If you've not already signed up, go over to nosmallendeavor.com and sign up for our free newsletter called NSE Notebook, where I share various behind the scenes commentary on themes we develop on No Small Endeavor.
It's been a delight to hear from so many of you who are on that email list, and we'd love to welcome you too, if you're not among that happy number.
Coming up, Amy and I discuss her more recent life, including [00:18:00] a traumatic brain injury that has affected her memory and the ways in which her recognition of the brokenness of her own life and her seeking to honor the vulnerability of others has played a key role in her life.
And the last year's been pretty wonderful and I guess tumultuous for you. Uh, and tumultuous in a recent accident that has affected your memory some, and then at the same time, this prestigious honor at the Kennedy Center. What are some of the highs and lows then, of this experience of, just over the last 12 months for you?
Amy
Oh my goodness. The last 12 months have been a real gift to me.
I was in a biking accident, and I don't remember it, so I don't have any trauma from that, but that led to a surgery to repair my shoulder in the end of September and then Kennedy Center Honors was in [00:19:00] December and then I had, I had another surgery that happened-- it was actually on my throat, the end of January, because I had a preexisting cyst, thyroglossal cyst, anyway, that unbeknownst to me was actually affecting my singing.
It was getting harder and harder for me to sing and something about that bike accident caused the growth of that cyst to go into hyperdrive. And so it was interfering with my swallowing. I had to have it taken out. And so, these are the gifts from all-- from that year. So the end of July, I had-- everything came to a grinding stop.
I did have a head injury. I had to be on no screens, no phone, nothing, for a couple of months. They had to wait to make sure that my brain was okay before they could operate on my shoulder.
My friend who was on the bike ride [00:20:00] with me said, "You kept saying, over and over, three things in the emergency room. You kept saying, 'something's wrong with my shoulder.' 'I can't believe I still have all my teeth.' And, 'I needed this.'"
Yeah. And so my, the curiosity in me has explored the fact that I kept saying those things over and over again. "I needed this."
I have just tried to say, how all did I need it? And one of the things is, because I started singing so young and because I had people around me that dreamed and schemed with me and toured with me, who managed me, who booked me - there was always a group around me who also paid their bills because of what I did. My life was laid out, always, in [00:21:00] advance, and, and in a way that prioritized things about my time, that it wasn't until everything totally stopped that I thought, I wonder, in a, on a level playing field, had I not ever sung, how would I have invested differently?
And in the short run, what I saw was, I had the chance to invest in a new way with my adult children, who, thinking they might have lost their mom. And this was, this was two years after I also had surprise open heart surgery...that was totally fine, I feel better than ever. But all of us can be oblivious or unaware of how we feel about our investment in another person or their investment in us.
And that really was kind of a slap slap to all of us, saying, what a gift we have in each other. [00:22:00]
But even at the Kennedy Center, I was so glad I didn't have to sing for that. I was so glad I didn't have to actually say very much. And I did go up and receive the award at a private dinner. I didn't have a speech, I didn't-- I just thought, I just, all I did was wiggle my toes and I just said, I will speak the truth of whatever comes into my head. And um, the overwhelming gift of feeling, I do feel like I see life through a different lens since last summer.
And I think there are some things that are probably changed about me. I don't know if it was the blow to the head. I feel like part of my filter is gone.
[Both laugh]
Lee
For good or for ill, I suppose.
Amy
Yeah. I just feel so much gratitude for right now, all the possibility of right now. And it makes everything more precious because for the first time in my life, I have felt very aware [00:23:00] that the resources of time, talent, treasure, ability, all those things... our resources are limited.
Lee
Amy
And so what we do matters. And we can't do everything.
Lee
Yeah.
I'm struck by something you just said that I want to follow up on. So, "wiggle my toes and speak the truth as it comes into my head." That seems to me pretty worth meditating on at some length. And I can speculate, but why wiggle your toes?
Amy
The morning of my mother's funeral, I was rushing around. I had planned several things to say, I had sort of loose notes. I got a call from Sheryl Crow, who lives in Nashville. She's one of three sisters, also a great relationship with her mother. And we don't see each other often, but we have a really dear friendship.
And she happened to call me. And that morning I said, [00:24:00] uh, you know, I was so rattled, I said, "I'm getting ready to go speak at my mom's service, and I'm so afraid I'm just gonna start crying and not be able to function."
And she's, I think this is what her mother told her, but she said, "Wherever you are, wiggle your toes. If you will wiggle your toes, it will connect you to the moment. It will remind you that you're in the present, and you'll return to yourself. You'll return to the moment in which you stand."
And that advice was very helpful that day. And, uh, yeah, it came from Sheryl. It's been helpful so many times in my life.
Lee
Yeah. I suspect I'm going to remember that one. Yeah, that's, that's really helpful.
You said there at the beginning that you suspect a lot of, a lot of this is just about you try to be honest and then you follow it up with, life is messy. And that does seem to me to be something that's come out consistently in your work, is that, [00:25:00] you know, a lot of your songs point to the fact that life is messy and that life is difficult, and there's a lot of grief, regardless of where we're coming from.
We all experience various forms of grief. We have to go through the process of grieving, the pain of brokenness, our own brokenness, the brokenness of others, things that we may or may not have had a contributing choice in.
But when you think about coming to be aware of the brokenness of the world, your own brokenness, and trying then to be honest about that, any key memories or experiences that led you to that kind of place, of being honest about the messiness?
Amy
Not being an observer of my life. I don't, I don't know. I just wound up that way.
Lee
Amy
Lee
Amy
I look at our culture right now. There's a lot of lines drawn in the [00:26:00] sand And there's so many things about the Bible that I don't understand.
There are things that I read and I go, Oh, Lord, that's terrifying. Oh, I don't-- whoo, I don't like any of this. And so that whole thing about how I see the world is, well, I, I might not agree with someone, or I might feel like whatever their words they're saying might feel like nails on chalkboard to me, or I'll, or I'll think, ahh-- but I have to immediately say, everybody's allowed their free choice.
They are doing what makes sense to them. And I had gotta wrap my head around the fact that we're one. I gotta wrap my head around the fact that we are mankind. For God so loved all of us. You know, it's just like, that is-- and I'm going to tell you, I know I'm a weirdo, but part of my mind every day goes to that.
Lee
Amy
Because, you know, I just [00:27:00] think from a distance, we all-- from a distance, a bunch of women can show up at a cocktail party that is a benefit for something we all believe in. And because I'm a woman, I know. You walk in, you look, and you go, oh, I didn't... ooh, I might have made a different fashion choice because I didn't know how everybody was going to be dressed. I just came off the farm. Up your game, Amy.
You know, I'm just like, shh shh shh, shut up, inner monologue.
And then, curiosity. I wonder, I wonder if they've had some work done. Okay, these four people have so clearly had a boob job. Do you wish you'd ever had a boob job? I mean, you don't even ask for it. It just all comes to your mind.
And all those things-- but you know, all that stuff is from a distance. And then you get all the way up on somebody. And then all of a sudden, it's just like, we are all part of the human [00:28:00] story. We're all part of the human story.
Lee
So, I want to go to the voice in your head you mentioned, and talk a little bit about critique and criticism.
And so first, the inner critic. Do you deal with the inner critic a lot?
Amy
Yes. I don't know that I acknowledge that I dealt with an inner critic, but I think everybody does. But I, I tend to be able to quickly frame things in a positive way. And it's really been since last summer's accident that I have been more aware of my inner critic.
A little over a year ago, our family started going to therapy. There was an event that was private that is now resolved, but the invitation for all of us to [00:29:00] understand our family system and how we all fit into it and how we saw each other, led to Vince and I continuing the opportunity for therapy.
This last Christmas, five months after I'm still regaining my footing, I reached out to my kids. It was my first step of stepping my toe back into work, doing some Christmas shows.
And I reached out to everybody saying, "I have almost no bandwidth for Christmas. And so I have energy to try to do one present. If money were no object, say one or two things that you would appreciate receiving at Christmas."
Several of our children said, "Could we continue therapy?"
And all of them have said over time, "Hey, I'm really not talking about any of you. I'm just trying to wrap my arms around [00:30:00] my own life." I said, "Perfect."
And, uh, I mean, I've been in therapy often on my whole life, but because I'm trying to see myself with new eyes within my own family system, within my work world, I was invited to a therapy session - I have been invited to multiple therapy sessions with my children.
Always going, "Oh, what are you going to talk about?" Oh, us. Hmm.
But, um... I, my inner critic was actually discussed in therapy with one of my children, because of her inner critic.
Lee
Amy
And it's made me much more aware. But I, in an attempt to navigate a life that has involved a lot of changes-- I was a very public person, I went through a divorce, I was still in the throes of raising young children. I [00:31:00] married Vince Gill, another public person, we had a child.
I have been running long and hard trying to do the best with what I have, trying to respect myself and others. As an empty nester, I am having the opportunity to go back and look at things in my life that I just tied a neat bow around that honestly require some real grieving. Real grieving. And grief is an experience to be moved through, and grief can be moved through, even loss of the most Important person in your life. If you move through grief, you arrive on the other side having come to some kind of peace with the change.
And if you don't [00:32:00] grieve, then you feel things that keep you stuck. You feel regret. You feel guilt. You feel a lot of things that there's not really an upside. And so, wouldn't it be beautiful if I gave myself the gift every day of processing some grief? Because we all hold so much grief. It's wordless.
Lee
We're going to take a short break, but coming right up, Amy talks about dealing with publicity and [00:33:00] criticism, and the words Billy Graham once spoke to her, and more.
So let me pivot then from internal critic to external critic. You've clearly had plenty of external critics through the years. And, you know, at least some that even a superficial overview of your career points to things, like when you cross over from CCM to pop, or when a major Christian distributor decides not to distribute your Christmas album, your latest Christmas album.
What have been internal mechanisms or habits that have helped you learn to navigate external criticism?
Amy
Well, something I inherited - I say I inherited it from my father, but maybe it was just unique to me - is I was just born with a high level of [00:34:00] oblivion.
[Lee laughs]
I don't think my father was oblivious. But--
Lee
That can be a gift though.
Amy
Oh, oh, it's definitely a gift.
Lee
Amy
And another thing is, I've had so many opportunities in my life to say, what if I tried X, Y, or Z? And I've had people help me do that. And so I say that because I felt from the time I was young that my choice mattered. And if my choice matters, another person's choice matters as well.
And so, you mentioned the distributor that chose not to put out whatever Christmas project I was a part of. And I... I think I just instinctively see other people's choices as being the choices that they are welcome to [00:35:00] have. And I just feel like you have to operate that way in the world. Somebody has to-- you have to be able to say, "I'm so curious about what you think about this subject."
And somebody can say their opinion with so much emotion, almost even an expectation, I have to be able to say back, "I love hearing all of that. That is so mind broadening. I don't feel the same way." So I'm going to behave differently because I have to operate by what's coming from inside me. I've got no other script. And I can't go off your script, or then I'm really in no man's land, because at some point you're going to walk away with your script.
And I feel like that's how I've tried to raise my children, is to say you have to know what you-- not just what your mind speaks, but what your body, how your body [00:36:00] responds to the truth of something.
You have to listen when you cry. You have to listen when the hairs on your arms go up. You have to listen to those things that are deeper than words in you. Whether it's an idea to do something. To walk down that dark street, to adhere to a lifestyle or a, a, a system of belief... and only you are wired the way you are wired.
And I trust that the True Light, who gives light to every man, is capable of speaking to you in that inner sanctum that only you have access.
Lee
Yeah.
So, two years ago, I was sitting here with-- Vince was where I'm sitting and I was sitting where you're sitting. [00:37:00] And, um, I did ask him a little question about what's it like being married to Amy Grant. So let me ask a couple of questions about marriage.
Amy
Lee
Um, but if it's okay, in talking about your first-- the end of your first marriage, you have this passage in your book where you talk about this sense that you needed to share with Billy Graham that you thought your first marriage might be at its end.
What do you remember about that conversation with him?
Amy
Well, I, I remember the feeling of it very well. We were in Minneapolis at what would end up being the last of his crusades, in which I sang, at which I sang. And um, I'm not sure what kind of big area we were in. It was just pipe and draped into a myriad of little dressing rooms.
And there was a point where I was [00:38:00] invited to go sit on the sofa with him. And I didn't have a lot of opportunities to be with Billy Graham, but he sure was larger than life in so many ways. And he could be simultaneously bigger than life and just calmingly quiet in his presence.
And, you know, that thing that just has to kind of speak the truth, truth of where I am... I was married. I had three children. I had fallen in love with a married man. And I already had a difficult marriage. And I felt myself just saying, I don't know where I'm going to wind up. But I think I'm incapable of doing what I have been doing anymore. And I couldn't walk on that stage with the man who [00:39:00]held the trust of the whole world.
And, uh, yeah, I just said, "I, I know I've been a public person of faith and I still believe in God and I'm headed for a divorce. I need you to know that."
And he sat down, and he said, "I've got a bunch of children." And he said, "There are a couple of them that are taking the long way home." And he said, "We'll all get there. It's okay."
I don't know what all he was saying, it's okay. Just the words, "it's okay."
And, uh, yeah. And then years later, he was at Flushing Meadow, and Vince and [00:40:00] I were on a trip to New York, and we had all of our kids, and we all went to the crusade. And anyway, somebody made a connection backstage for us and we went back there and Billy came and gave Vince the biggest hug.
And me, he said, "It's so good to see you. I'm so glad you're here." And I thought, that's what we do with each other.
Lee
Yeah. Yeah.
What are some of the things that marriage to Vince Gill has meant?
Amy
Oh my goodness. He accepts me... right where I am, for who I am. And I feel like I have felt the kindness and unconditional love that we express about God. I have felt it in a way through him that I've never experienced through [00:41:00] anybody else.
And he is imperfect, as am I. We know how to trigger each other to the point you'd think a rocket was going to launch. But he is, um, he's a, he's a man of integrity. And he's got a great sense of humor, and I mean almost every morning the first thing he tries to do is make me smile. Some kind of silliness.
He didn't grow up in a kumbaya world. I did. He holds his cards close to his chest, his feelings, what he thinks about anything. You know, he opts for being silly. I want the conversation to go deep. I mean, they're so...
Lee
We were talking before you came around and he had me in stitches telling me jokes and stories.
Amy
Oh yeah, yeah.
That's-- he loves that. And when it comes to deep talk, you know, he does not have a lot of... how to best say it... I told him, I said, "I've got to [00:42:00] have some way to tease about this with you." Because I'm, I don't mean it in a critical way. But I used to go, "I feel like it's ping with no pong," you know?
[Both laugh]
But I said, "Ken, is it fair to say about 25 words a day for the really deep stuff?" And he was looking at me almost like I was criticizing him. I said, "Just, I'm just saying." Like, when I start to launch into something, I have to say, "We're going to violate the 25 word quota here."
And the other day I called him and I said, "What did you do today?"
And he said, "I stayed home all day. It was fantastic. I didn't even meet my quota."
Yeah. Yeah. So laughter is the best thing that he has brought to my world.
Lee
So as we get, get toward the end here, you've pointed to a few kind of daily practices. A daily prayer, I think that you said you say, that you alluded to. But other daily practices, rhythms that help you?
Amy
Mm [00:43:00] hmm. I start every morning with, "Thank you."
"Thank you."
I'm so thankful to wake up, just to wake up. And daily practices... I mean, life is so different as an empty nester. It's so different.
Lee
Amy
And so, you know, there's, there's time in the mornings for things to be different and time at the end of the day when you're not just, like, trying to make sure that the next load of laundry is in, and what's everybody eating tomorrow, and all that.
So I feel a little bit...embarrassed because of my, just the time freedom right now. But every morning I say, "thank you," and I love getting a cup of coffee and I go outside. And if I can, I put my feet on the grass and connect with the beauty [00:44:00] of the earth, and I just let my thoughts wander. And then-- I've done this at different times in my life, and I'm back into this practice, but reading a chapter of the Gospels every day... anyway, and just the fascination with Jesus' life. Man, he created such a stir everywhere he went.
And I'll be honest, it is, it's hard, it's hard to read a lot of the other stuff in the Bible for me. I have a love/hate relationship with a lot of the history in the Old Testament. It's just, it's hard for me to trust anything that involves people... because I know that I'm a mess.
And I, I, I read all the New Testament. I read, I read the Old Testament too, but like, I'm like, okay, people are involved. It's a mess. I'm just going to like, whoo, okay, God, I know you're [00:45:00] in this. I just got to trust you. If people are involved... if people are involved, I have to take a deep breath. And so, mostly what I want to hear about is Jesus. And then he says stuff that scares the everliving daylights out of me.
Like today! What I read today was about if, if a woman's divorced. And I'm like, Jesus, even you said it. You didn't talk about very many things, but why did you talk about divorce? People are so ugly to each other. Why did you say divorce? Like, and then I find myself fighting with him. And go, I... clearly, we all need help.
[Both laugh]
So, I have a very active imagination, and I'm, I will not go down without a fight, and I'm so glad. Every day, what I mostly say is, "Hold on [00:46:00] to me and don't let me go. Just hold on to me."
Lee
Amy
Lee
Been talking to Amy Grant, here at her home.
Amy, thank you for the... honoring us and sharing your generosity, hospitality.
Thank you. It's been delightful.
Amy
Lee
You've been listening to No Small Endeavor and our interview with Amy Grant.
We gratefully acknowledge the support of Lilly Endowment Incorporated, a private philanthropic foundation supporting the causes of community development, education, and religion, and the support of the John Templeton Foundation, whose vision is to become a global catalyst for discoveries that contribute to human flourishing.[00:47:00]
Our thanks to all the stellar team that makes this show possible. Christie Bragg, Jakob Lewis, Sophie Byard, Tom Anderson, Kate Hays, Mary Eveleen Brown, Cariad Harmon, Jason Sheesley, Ellis Osburn, and Tim Lauer. And special thanks to audio engineer Matt Rausch for taping this interview, who took such good care of us in the studio.
Thanks for listening, and let's keep exploring what it means to live a good life, together.
No Small Endeavor is a production of PRX, Tokens Media, LLC, and Great Feeling Studios.