Lee
[00:00:00] I'm Lee C. Camp and this is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
Anthony
When these detective was arresting me, I said, "You got the wrong person. I haven't done any of that."
Lee
This is Anthony Ray Hinton.
The detective, Mr. Hinton says, replied...
Anthony
"I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it." He said, "But I'm going to make sure you're found guilty of it."
I said, "For a crime I didn't commit?"
He said, "You must have a hearing problem."
Lee
Mr. Hinton was in fact found guilty for a crime he did not commit, and sentenced to death. He then lived on Alabama's death row for nearly 30 years, before he was finally released.
Anthony
You can sit in that cell and be angry with the world. You can sit in that cell and try to find peace, joy. That's up to you.
But you can't say you don't have a choice.
Lee
Mr. Hinton's story is one of the most remarkable I have ever heard. Coming right up.[00:01:00]
I'm Lee C. Camp. This is No Small Endeavor, exploring what it means to live a good life.
Numerous wisdom traditions insist that the most difficult of circumstances reveal who we are. They make clear our character.
But imagine being dealt this hand: imagine being sentenced to death, and living on death row for almost 30 years, for a crime you did not commit. That you live in a tiny cell, 5 feet by 7 feet, 23 of 24 hours of every day. The trauma of being locked up for no good reason, and then years after it's become clear that there was no evidence supporting the conviction in the first place, you're finally released without compensation and without apology.
One question it raises for me: what kind of a person would I be through such a harrowing journey? What kind of person would I be when I came out on the other side? The path to [00:02:00] resentment, bitterness, and hatred is not hard to imagine. The path to compassion, love, and hope, more difficult to envision.
But, Mr. Hinton makes it clear that that second path is not an impossible possibility.
Here is our interview with Mr. Anthony Ray Hinton.
Mr. Anthony Ray Hinton spent almost 30 years on Alabama's death row, after being wrongfully convicted of robbery, murders which he did not commit. His calls went all the way to the United States Supreme Court where the charges were vacated and then the state of Alabama came to retry Mr. Hinton. They dropped all charges, and Mr. Hinton was released.
Mr. Hinton is the author of the New York Times bestseller, The Sun Does Shine: How I Found Life and Freedom on Death Row, which Desmond Tutu called, "amazing and heartwarming." And it's a description with which I heartily agree.
Welcome, Mr. Hinton.
Anthony
Lee
It's a pleasure to have you. I've very much been looking forward to this conversation and very grateful for the time with [00:03:00] you today.
You and I both grew up just outside Birmingham. I grew up on the east side of Birmingham and you on the west side...
Anthony
Lee
...in a little town called Praco.
What do you remember from growing up in Praco, Alabama?
Anthony
Well, Praco was a coal mining town. Your father worked in the mine, and all the mother was a domestic house worker, and children went to school. But it was the best time of my life. And I didn't realize at the time how great of a life it was. We didn't have money, but what we had was a, a village.
We grew up with the sense of value that, "yes, ma'am," and "no, ma'am." "Yes, sir, no, sir." We gave adults respect, and by giving adults respect, it taught us how to respect each other. But more important to me, it taught me how to respect myself. And I am a true believer that if you don't respect yourself, there's no way you can respect anyone else.
And so we did the best we could. We lived in not [00:04:00] the best houses in the world. We-- the bathroom, as we call it today, was outside. Everybody had the same. Laughter was all over the coal mining town.
And so, we grew up together, and being-- growing up like that, it made the other kids feel more like family than friends. And so it was a close-knit coal mining town that, uh, you just couldn't find in America anymore, I don't believe.
So, as I said, it was like a town that everybody knew your name, everybody knew each other, you didn't have to lock your doors. What one had, everybody else had.
I can remember, my mother used to raise some hogs, and she would raise about six hogs a year. And when it was time to kill that hog, the first two or three hogs she killed, the meat went to the neighbors, not ours.
And after, she used to say, "Hey boy, come here, [00:05:00] take this down to this person. Take this meat down to that person and that person."
And it gave me a sense of value that we shared with each other. And somebody in the community may have a... or raised collard green. They raised enough collard green where everybody in the community got some collard green. And the next person may raise corn. And that's how we fed ourselves. That's how we shared with each other. And it just brought me up as a kid, uh, and it's still there with me today, that we may not have more than other, but we always have enough that we can share with someone.
Lee
And at that same time that you're having those beautiful experiences, you're also there in the, in the wake of what came to be known as "Bombingham" with all the, all the sort of civil unrest in Birmingham.
So, in what way, being there, not far outside of Birmingham, all that was going on there, were you aware of that? Or what was your experience with all of that turmoil?
Anthony
I was aware [00:06:00] of racism. My mom and everybody in the community used to talk to other kids about racism.
I remember my mom telling me that there are bad people in this world. And those are the people that you need to pray for. And when the "Bombingham" happened, I remember my mom getting all her children together and said, "Listen, something bad have happened." And she told us about the church.
Lee
Here, Mr. Hinton is referring to the horrific bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church in downtown Birmingham in September of 1963. The racially motivated bombing killed four young girls who were getting ready for Sunday school.
Anthony
And she thought that when a man or anyone else who disrespect God's house, that person is really evil. And she wanted us to be extra careful when we walk to school. She wanted us to be extra careful from taking a ride with anybody.
And she said, [00:07:00] "Especially someone of white. Just tell them, no, you'll walk." She said, "You don't ever know who they are, what they have, and their intention."
And so it made us go to church. I never will forget, we went to church and we prayed for the little girls that had been killed in the bombing. We prayed for Birmingham. We prayed for that this wouldn't escalate any farther, where it would get out of hand.
In Praco, Blacks lived up on top of the hill and more white live down below us. And even then, it taught us a separation.
And my mom told us, these are the time that she used to tell us that evil people live in this world. They exist. And that's why we must always stay prayed up because you never know what's going to happen. And so, it made us realize and understand what was going on.
But we, to this day, I always ask, what is the difference? God made you exactly who [00:08:00] he wanted you to be. And he made me exactly who he wanted me to be. I, to this day, don't see the difference. You bleed red blood just as I. And that's just the way we was brought up, to believe and love in this country and do what we can, or see no man for his race, but see him for who he is. And that is, that he is God's child.
Lee
As I'm reading your book-- I only learned this in reading your book that-- I mean, I remember, I was in high school when these so-called "cooler killer" murders were happening.
And there were several episodes where the robbery-murder occurred, execution style killing, where the manager of the restaurant would be put in the cooler and shot. Uh, two of these had happened, then a third one happened in Birmingham where there was a... it was attempted, but the manager of the Quincy's was not killed, but was shot in the head and survived.
And then, you tell how, on July [00:09:00] 31, 1985... which again, just, it's kind of bizarre to me because I know that was the summer I just graduated from high school and I'm getting ready to go away from home. You had been out of high school for a number of years at that point. You're cutting grass there, at your home where you and your mother lived together.
And I think you were reciting a Bible verse, I think you say? Do you remember what you were reciting and what happened that day?
Anthony
We was getting ready to go to revival. And I had been asked earlier to be prepared to say something to the congregation. And always, I said, I've always been in church a witness for God.
And I had thought about what scripture we would talk about and what I would talk about. And I always tried to find a scripture that made me believe more and more into God. And I'm not for sure, but I think I had come across a scripture where it teaches you to continue to have faith in [00:10:00] God, regardless of what trial and tribulation you're going through. And being Black and poor, I always felt that we needed to lift each other up.
And I had no idea that I would never make it to Bible study. Because... you just didn't think that I wouldn't make it. I hadn't done anything not to make it to Bible study. And, to be honest with you, when they put those handcuffs on me, Bible study and everything else just left my mind.
But I always wanted to do something, and I always believed that things happen for a reason, but nothing that particular day had happened. And so I was looking forward to going to church and trying to uplift my neighbors and say, "Hey, there's no need in being disparate. There's no need in feeling bad, because God lives and we are here. And regardless of what we have and don't have, everything belongs to God." [00:11:00] And I didn't get the opportunity to do that.
Lee
As you tell over, the next 24, 48, 72 hours or so, these, um, shocking stories, where, at one point, one of the investigators, when you're, you're asking, you don't even know why you're there, and finally, this particular investigator says, "You're under arrest for first degree kidnapping, first degree robbery, first degree attempted murder."
But what do you remember about that moment? Or how did you experience that moment?
Anthony
You know, I was hurt, if I'm going to be honest with you, and I believe in honesty.
My mom had brought us up to believe that the police was your friend. Or she used to tell us if we ever go somewhere and we get lost or whatever, always try to find a police officer. They are there to protect you. They are there to help you.
And so when these detectives was arresting me, and I said, "You got the wrong person. I haven't done any of that." [00:12:00] He said, "Let me tell you something right now. I don't care whether you did or didn't do it." He said, "but I'm going to make sure you found guilty of it."
And I said, "For a crime I didn't commit?" He said, "You must have a hearing problem. Didn't I just tell you, I don't care whether you did or didn't do it?"
And I seen at that moment, this man was not going to listen to reason. He was not interested in anything I had to say.
And after a while... I kept trying to convince him that I could never take another human being's life for anything. He finally looked at me and he said, "Let me tell you something right now." He said, "Since you being honest with me, I'm going to be honest with you."
He said, "I truly believe you didn't commit the crime." He said, "But since y'all..." and he made sure I understood what "y'all" meant. "Since y'all is always helping one another, since y'all are always taking up for one [00:13:00] another, why don't you take this rap for one of your homeboys who truly committed the crime?"
And with tears coming down my eyes, I wiped away the tears, and I said, "Officer, there's not a homeboy in this world I would take a rap for like that."
And that detective walked off and shut the door and left me, now puzzled with, what is this all about? He just made a statement to me that he truly believed I didn't commit the crime. So why am I here? And I had to sit in that cell and ponder that and ponder that and ponder that for... even to this day, uh, I still think about the day that he looked me in my eye and told me that.[00:14:00]
Lee
You're listening to No Small Endeavor and our conversation with Anthony Ray Hinton, who lived 30 years on Alabama's death row for a crime he did not commit.
I love hearing from you. Tell us what you're reading, who you're paying attention to, or send us feedback about today's episode. You can reach me at lee@nosmallendeavor.com.
You can get show notes for this episode in your podcast app or wherever you listen. These notes include links to resources mentioned in the episode, as well as a PDF of my complete interview notes, and a full transcript.
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Coming up, Mr. Hinton recounts his harrowing experiences on Alabama's death row.[00:15:00]
Would you do a little bit of commentary for us on the ways you saw lack of access to money being crucial in your unfolding story?
Anthony
I saw, at that time, that if you born Black and poor, that the authority had the power to come and arrest you and accuse you of any crime that they wanted to solve, or not solve, but to solve it for the business community.
And I realized that if you don't have money to hire decent defense, 100% you was going to be convicted, especially if you're a person of color.
And as I was trying to explain to these detectives that I could never take a human life, that same detective looked at me [00:16:00] and he said, "There's five things that are going to convict you. Would you like to know what they are?" And I said, "Yes."
He said, "Number one, you're Black. Number two, a white man is going to say you shot him. Whether you shot him or not, believe me, I do not care." He said, "Number three, you're going to have a white prosecutor. And number four, you're going to have a white judge. And number five, you're going to have an all white jury."
He said, "Do you know what that spell?" And since I didn't know what it's spelt, he spelt it for me. He said, "Conviction, conviction, conviction, conviction, conviction."
What I want you and your listeners to understand is this. He never did say, we have any evidence. He didn't say, we got your fingerprint, we got a gun that we're going to convict you with. He didn't say, we got somebody [00:17:00] that can put you at the scene of the crime. No evidence. Everything he named was white.
White prosecutor, white judge, white jury. We got a gun we're going to say match, whether it match or not. And I believed in the justice system at that time. I kept wondering, how can this be?
The only gun they got is the gun that I told them that my mother had around the house for snakes. They didn't have a search warrant, they didn't have a warrant for anything. I volunteered, because all my life, my mom brought me up to tell the truth. And if I hadn't done anything, my mom always told me, "Why are you running if you haven't done anything? Why are you lying if you haven't done anything?"
I told the truth, and they went back and got the gun.
And I never will forget... [00:18:00] I never will forget the DA, he said, "Who are you going to get to represent you?" And I said, "I don't know."
And by saying that, he knew at that moment that they could get a conviction, because more than likely I was going to have to have a state appointed attorney. And that's exactly what I have.
And when they appointed a state appointed attorney to me, I never will forget the judge said, "Anthony Ray Hinton, you are being charged with two counts of capital murder." and he said, "Can you afford an attorney?" And I said, "No, your honor." He said, "Do you understand what you're being charged with?" I said, "Yes, your honor."
And he looked back in his courtroom and he called his lawyer up front and told that lawyer that he wanted him to represent me on two counts of first degree capital murder.
The lawyer didn't ask me my name. [00:19:00] The first thing that lawyer said to me was, "I did not go to law school to do pro bono work." And I looked at that lawyer and I said, "Sir, would it make a difference to you if I told you I was innocent?"
And that lawyer for the first time looked at me. And he said these words. He said, "The problem with that statement, all of y'all is always doing something. And the moment you get caught, you say you didn't do it."
This is the lawyer that I had to believe was going to represent me to the best of his ability. This is the lawyer that I somehow needed to try and convince that I was innocent, but more important, my life is in your hands. I need you to give me your best.
But that lawyer did exactly enough [00:20:00] to make it legal and to get me found guilty. And I never will forget the day that the judge stood up proudly and said, "Anthony Ray Hinton, you have been found guilty by a jury of your peers. And it is the order of this court that I'll send you to death."
And that judge had the audacity to say, "May God have mercy on your soul."
And just when I thought that I had heard it all, and I give him the benefit of the doubt, the prosecutor could be heard over the courtroom saying, "We didn't get the right n***** today, but at least we got a n***** off the street."
Lee
Anthony
And... and [00:21:00] that's.... that talk, that not seeking truth... cost me 30 years of my life... that I should never have been tried nor convicted.
And that not seeking justice... caused me the greatest pain. And that pain was, and still is, that I lost my mother while I was on death row for a crime I didn't commit.
And I just believe my mother died worrying about her baby boy. She had no way of helping me, and I found out that she was trying her best [00:22:00] to get the lawyer that was appointed to represent me... she was trying her best to get him to represent me. And she was giving some of her social security check and he wasn't even on the case.
And so, have to live with that every day of my life... knowing that my mom died and I didn't get a chance to say goodbye. I didn't get a chance to tell my mother how much I admired her, how much I loved her, and how much I appreciate her for bringing me up to be a decent human being.
Lee
Thank you for that.
What do you remember about those first 24 hours of being taken to [00:23:00] death row?
Anthony
I remember, when they put me in the, inside of the cage, how small it was. And I learned that it was a 5 by 7 cage.
I remember all of the noise that was coming from every direction that you could possibly-- Men shouting, men hollering. Uh, it was like a place where there's nothing but noise. And I kept even asking myself, how do they sleep with all this noise? How do anyone think with all of this noise?
And just before the officer closed the door, I asked him, I said, "Is it always like this?" He said, "You'll get used to it." And he shut the door.
And I looked up and there was nothing but [00:24:00] concrete to my left, to my right, up above my head. And then if you look straight out the door, that was nothing but mesh wire. And the only little hole you could see is, uh, little hole where they bring you your tray and give it to you. Everything else was concrete. The bed was, uh, made out of, like, steel. They had a little plastic-like mattress on it. Uh, no pillows. They had a toilet mounted to the wall. And that was it.
Lee
Anthony
No window.
The first thing that I knew I had to do is somehow I tried to make my mind believe that this cell was larger than what it is. And I remember closing my eyes and saying, this got to be the biggest cell I ever seen. And I was trying to [00:25:00] convince myself of that, but when I opened my eyes, it just still was the same.
If luck would have it, and I use that word... the day that I got there, they was in the process of executing a man. And I never had witnessed, never thought, never heard of someone being executed, but they had an execution scheduled for that Thursday night.
Uh, about 11:45, the men begin to beat. And I was wondering, what's going on now? And they would take their cups and just rattle on their bars and just beat, beat, beat, beat, beat, beat. And about--
Lee
All the men in death row?
Anthony
All the men. All the men. I mean, they beat it. They beat it and beat it and beat it. And about 12:15 is when they stopped. [00:26:00] After a while, the guard would come and say, "Hey, it's over with. He's gone."
And I didn't know because I was just getting there... that was they way saying, "We are with you until the very last." Or, "We don't know who is in the death chamber with you, who is there, whether you got family, friends, or who, but we want you to know that we are with you regardless. And the last thing we want you to hear is us beating on the bars for you."
And so, after that first execution... Or actually, guy that was next to me, I said, "What is that all about?" And he told me. And after that, I can honestly say I didn't say nothing else to nobody for about three years.
Lee
How many [00:27:00] executions, killings occurred while you were on death row?
Anthony
Lee
We're going to take a short break, but coming right up, Anthony Ray Hinton's strategy that kept him sane for 30 years on death row, and his journey toward compassion and forgiveness.
A warning that this segment contains descriptions of murder and death
You tell a story... there were a lot of occasions, apparently, where in the evenings men would weep or sob [00:28:00] on death row, and one night-- and this may have been when you first started speaking again on death row. There was a, I think a man crying?
Anthony
It was exactly 1:00 AM in the morning. His crying woke me up, and I got out of this bunk bed that was too small for me. And my mom had taught me compassion. My mom told me, no matter what one does in life, they still deserve compassion.
And so I got up out of this bed and I walked up to the bars. Can't see who it is, can't, don't know... and I said, "Sir, do you need me to get the officer back here?" And it took this man a while to reply, because I hadn't talked to him.
And finally he said, "No. I just got word my mother passed." And when I heard those words, his mother had passed, I thought about [00:29:00] my mother.
I went and sat on the bed and I said, "God, if you're listening, I need to escape from this place. In order for me to survive this hell, I need to escape."
And I knew I couldn't escape physically, but I knew I could escape mentally.
And I closed my eyes as tight as I could close them. And I've always wanted to meet Queen Elizabeth, for some reason.
I just closed my eyes and imagined being at the palace. And when I got to the palace, I told the guard that I was there to see the Queen. And they goes in and they tell the Queen that I'm there. She invite me in, and went in. I introduce myself to the Queen and we sit down and we conversate and we talk about Prince Charles, Prince Harris, Prince William and the [00:30:00] tragedy of Princess Di.
And she looks at me and she says, "Mr. Hinton. Would you like some tea?" And I told the Queen, "I would love some tea."
And in my mind, about 25 to 30 minutes later, I stands up, and I tell the Queen I must be leaving. And the Queen looks at me and she says, "Mr. Hinton, will you come back?" And I told the Queen I would love to come back.
Now that I realize I can leave death row anytime I want to, in my mind, I did something next that I, at the age of 12, I promised myself that I would never do. And that is, I promised myself I would never get married. [00:31:00] But I decided that I would get married.
Lee
Anthony
And I didn't just, I didn't just marry anybody. I married the beautiful and talented actress, Halle Berry.
Lee
Anthony
Halle Berry and I stayed married in my mind for 15 long, beautiful years. Halle Berry was the perfect wife. She didn't say nothing but, "Yes, dear," and "Okay, dear. Whatever you want to do, dear, it's okay with me, dear."
But then, going into the 16th year, for whatever reason, the warden did something that he had never done for death row inmates. You got to realize, we didn't have TVs. And they started letting us buy TVs from K-Mart.
And so, the warden showed us a movie, and the movie was called "Speed." And for the first time, I laid eyes on Sandra Bullock.
[Lee laughs]
[00:32:00] And I watched this lady drive this bus around and around. And I tell people, if I'm going to be honest, I was building my nerves up to give Halle some sad news.
And once I built my nerves up, I... just as I'm talking to you, I looked at that empty s-- And I pretend it was Halle, and I said, "I'm going to divorce you and I'm going to marry Sandra Bullock."
Lee
That had to be hard news for her.
Anthony
It was. It broke her heart. But true to her words, she looked at me and she said, "Okay, dear."
I would play baseball for the Yankees every year. I played basketball for my beloved, pathetic New York Knicks. And then I played tennis. I went to Wilmington five straight years, and I beat [00:33:00] Roger Federer. And even to this day, Wilmington have yet to send me my Rolex watch.
But that's how I was able to do my time - by imagine being anywhere but on death row. And it got me through 30 years of pure hell.
It saved my insanity, because death row is a place of solitary confinement. I had to watch 54 men and 1 woman walk to their execution. I witnessed, and when I say witnessed... at least 11 men hung themselves while I was on death row. And I kept asking myself, when did these men lose hope?
And I kept saying, I [00:34:00] don't never want to lose my hope. It is that hope that got me through the toughest years of my life.
Lee
Another theme that runs through your storytelling on death row, is this kind of dynamic between choice, anger, hatred, and rage. And you're very forthright about this various times at which rage begins to bubble up in you.
And yet, you keep coming back to this notion that you still had a choice. And at one point, later on in the book, you say, "I was afraid every single day on death row. And I also found a way to find joy every single day. I learned that fear and joy are both a choice." As well as you having said that hatred is a choice. Or, to not hate. Love and compassion are a choice.
How does one hold on to that choice? How does one hold on to the possibilities [00:35:00] of having that kind of agency in one's life?
Anthony
To this day, I still tell people, every morning you wake up, you wake up with a choice. What you choose to do with that choice is entirely up to you. But at least you wake up with a choice.
And even on death row, I let those men knew every morning, if you're alive, you got a choice today. You can sit in that cell and be angry with the world. That's up to you. You can sit in that cell and try to find peace, joy. That's up to you. But you can't say you don't have a choice.
And what I did was... you mentioned Henry, and I want to share this with you.
Henry was a Ku Klux Klansman. Or, his father was the Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan in Alabama.
And, [00:36:00] when you come to death row, nobody know what you've done. Nobody know really who you are. And the cell next to me was empty, and they put Henry in it. I told Henry my name was Ray, and he told me his name was Henry.
And I said, "Well, I'm not going to welcome you to death row, but you're here." I said, "If ever you need anything, please feel free to ask me if I got it. You're more than welcome." I said, "Not only me, but any of these guys around you, we are a family here."
Getting to know Henry, was told and informed that Henry was a Ku Klux Klansman. And Henry had did a horrible crime.
A Black man had got found not guilty in Birmingham for killing a white police officer. The Klan was up in arms, and Henry's father gave his son an order to go out and kill the first African American male that he [00:37:00] came across.
Lee
Anthony
And I kept wondering, where was that village that we love to talk about?
Where was that village that say it takes a village to raise a child? Where was that village when this young boy was being taught hate? Where was that village when he went to school and was allowed to say all kind of racist words and use racist epitet the way he wants. Where was that village?
Well, that village was nowhere to be found, and that village came out when he was apprehended. And that village sit on the jury box, and that village found him guilty, and that village said this would be a better world if he wasn't in it.
And they sentenced my friend, Henry, to die.
And over the course of the years that Henry was on death row, I said, "Henry, I want you to be who you think you are. [00:38:00] Henry, I want you to use whatever words you want to use. Believe me, there's no repercussion in whatever you say. You have the freedom to speak as you want to."
I wanted to prove to Henry that I was nothing the way that his father, his community, or anyone else had told him I was. And Henry did use the N word and Henry said it proudly.
I still talked to Henry every day, every day, every day. Within 10 years, Henry had stopped using the N word, and Henry began to see that everything that his father had told him was a lie.
And I said, "Henry, my mother loved me, for my mother always been truthful to me." I said, "Henry, I'm not going to tell you your father didn't love you, but I believe he didn't love you enough to tell you the truth."
I said, "Henry, racism is passed down from [00:39:00] generation to generation." I said, "The fact that you was your father's son and you was perhaps going to have children and you was going supposed to pass it down."
I said, "Henry, I want to start a book club and I want you to be in my book club." And the book that I wanted Henry to read was by James Baldwin, Go Tell it on the Mountain.
And I never seen anyone read the book, and Henry had wrote up six pages back and front, questions, what he thought about the book. And when I told him, I said, "Henry, you do know that James Baldwin was a Black man?"
And Henry said, "What?" I said, "Yeah, you read a-- James Baldwin is Black, Henry." And Henry said, "Well, I didn't even know Black people wrote books."
I said, "Henry, you lived in a world that you was being taught whatever they wanted to teach you." I said, "We are police officers. We are judges. We are lawyers. We are [00:40:00] doctors. We are nurses." I said, "Henry, we everything that a white person can be." I said, "We may not get the notoriety that you get," I said, "but we are there."
So, my point was not to disgrace Henry, not to make Henry feel bad. I wanted to show Henry, we are the same.
So in, going in year 12, his mother came to visit him. And she died of a mass heart attack, right down the visiting yard. They cleared the visit off, and we rallied around Henry. We finally got Henry through that, and I said, "Henry, everybody that live must die."
About a year later, no one other than Benny Hayes himself came to death row to see his son. I was on the visiting yard, and Henry waited for me to come. I got up, which you weren't supposed to get up, but I went in--
And [00:41:00] Henry introduced me to his father. But Henry didn't introduce me as Ray, as Anthony. He said, "Daddy, this is my friend, Ray."
And I reached my hand out to shake his father hand, but his father wouldn't shake my hand. And I left and went back to my table.
And I, after the visiting hour was over, I knew Henry was looking sad. I said, "Henry, what's wrong?" He said, "Oh, nothing." I said, "Henry, come on, man, we've been around each other now for too long, don't lie to me. What's wrong?" He said, "My father told me, as long as he come to see me, do not ever invite a n***** to his table."
And I said, "Henry, that is your father cancer. If your father want to die with that cancer called hate, then Henry, let him die with that cancer called hate." I said, "You don't have to die with it. Henry, you got a choice now."[00:42:00]
And so, his father came back three months later. As God would have it, he died of a mass heart attack, again, on death row... visiting his son.
And I said-- perhaps I shouldn't've... I said, " Henry, it seem as though God allowed your mother and father to come here on death row and they died here as well." I said, "It's like God is saying, since you put your son on death row, then it's only fitting for you two to die on death row."
Well, this is year 13, and going into year 14. Henry seemed to be doing well and everybody respected him and Henry was gettin along. In year 15, they sent Henry an execution date. [00:43:00]
And Henry wrote the warden and asked the warden could I be with him because all of his family had died out, and the warden told him yes.
The day of his execution... I wanted to make Henry just laugh. I didn't, I didn't want Henry to think about, today is my last day on earth. Nothing. I wanted Henry to laugh.
They put us on the visiting yard at 9 AM that morning. The warden had got up a bunch of change for us to get up and go get snacks out the vending machine. I believe I did a great job. I made Henry laugh.
And about 9:30, they brought Henry his final meal. And when Henry took the lid off his tray, I looked at it, it was a six ounce steak. And I said, "Henry, you're ready to die." He said, "Why would you say that?" I said, "That's all you want for your last meal, a little old six ounce steak?" And he said, "Yes, Ray."
And he said, "Ray, can I ask you something?" I said, "Yeah, Henry." He said, [00:44:00] "If it ever become your time, what are you going to order?"
I said, "Henry, I'm glad you asked me that." I said, "But Henry, what I want, they're going to have to go to the forest and get it. And when they bring it back from the forest, I'm going to say, that ain't what I told y'all I want."
I said, "Henry, do you know how far the forest is from Alabama?" I said, I said, "So, every time they bring me something, Henry, it's not what I want." I said, "Henry, in other words, if there's a law that say they can't execute me until I eat my last meal, I'm gonna be here forever. Because no matter what they bring me, it ain't what I want."
And Henry laughed, and he said, "Ray, only you could think of something like that."
And so, now it become 11:30 and they come in and get Henry. They allow us to embrace for the first time.
I embraced Henry, and I looked at him and I [00:45:00] said, "Henry, I want you to know that I love you. I want you to know that I believe God, I know, love you." I said, "I hope you have asked God for forgiveness." And he said, "Ray, I've been asking God to forgive me." And I said, "Well, you know what, Henry? I truly believe that one day you and I will see each other again."
They took him away and they put him in the chair. And they asked Henry, did he have any final words? And I would never forget Henry's final words.
He said, "All of my life, I was taught to hate. All of my life, my mother taught me hate. My father taught me hate. My community taught me hate. And the very people that they taught me to hate, for the last [00:46:00] 15 years have shown me nothing but love.
And tonight, as I leave this world, I leave this world now knowing what real love feel like."
And they executed my friend, Henry.
Lee
I've been talking to Mr. Anthony Ray Hinton, wrongfully convicted of murders and robberies he did not commit. He spent almost 30 years on Alabama's death row.
Mr. Hinton, thank you. This is, uh... honored to get to be with you today, and we're very grateful for your, your bearing witness, and your time, and, uh, the willingness to go through those difficult stories with us again.
We thank you and honor you.
Anthony
Thank you, sir.[00:47:00]
Lee
You've been listening to No Small Endeavor and our interview with Anthony Ray Hinton.
You can learn more about Anthony and his memoir, which chronicles his experiences, entitled The Sun Does Shine, How I Found Life and Freedom on Death Row.
He was also portrayed by O'Shea Jackson Jr. in the film "Just Mercy," and I strongly recommend both the book, as well as the unabridged version of our interview with Mr. Hinton.
And I also strongly recommend checking out the work of the Equal Justice Initiative, led by Bryan Stevenson, headquartered in Montgomery, Alabama.
We gratefully acknowledge the support of Lilly Endowment Incorporated, a private philanthropic foundation supporting the causes of community development, education, and religion.
And the support of the John Templeton Foundation, whose vision is to become a global catalyst for discoveries that contribute to human flourishing.[00:48:00]
Our thanks to all the stellar team that makes this show possible. Christie Bragg, Jakob Lewis, Sophie Byard, Tom Anderson, Kate Hays, Mary Eveleen Brown, Cariad Harmon, Jason Sheesley, Ellis Osburn, and Tim Lauer.
Thanks for listening, and let's keep exploring what it means to live a good life, together.
No Small Endeavor is a production of PRX, Tokens Media, LLC, and Great Feeling Studios.